Tube starvation/stealing

[MaxMax161]

Tube starvation/stealing is going to play a BIG part of the match strategy in any higher level match. The question is how do you do it? Which tubes, which bots in what roles, ect? What do you guys think the best way to implement a tube starvation/stealing strategy is?

Does it vary with your alliance make up and/or the opposing alliance makeup? How far do you go to get a tube away from your opponent? What if there is another tube you want in your feeder lane? A different tube unguarded on the field? It's early in the game/late in the game? Assorted logo completeness?

With all these possible variables do you think there can be any blanket strategy, maybe just a few, or are their countless different variations?

[Richard Wallace]

What is tube stealing? Picking up tubes on your opponents' side of the field?

[Norman J]

I contest that tube starving will be utilized at high-level play. All teams that make it to Einstein will have such practiced human players that they should be able to drop all three shapes into the scoring zone. Such an ability renders tube starving strategies completely ineffective. In fact, if you try to starve and go to the lanes, the other team will just throw all the tubes and outscore you by a huge margin.

[Brandon Holley]

I don't think there is, or should be, a blanket strategy for this part of the game.

Particularly in eliminations, it is important to have a couple of different strategies you can employ at various points in time.

One particular strategy that I feel will be extremely critical in St. Louis is starving one particular tube on the field. For example, your alliance can decide that you will NOT throw any squares on to the open field. You will either human load them, or pick them up from the lane, but you will not place squares out into the open. The defensive team on your alliance will then have one clear mission, and that is to defend all squares. Whether they push them into your lanes, or pick them up themselves, their mission will be to keep squares out of the grasp of your opponents.

I have seen that particular strategy in action a couple of times (we used it in Boston a few times) and its quite effective. If the opposing alliance cannot complete logos, their score will be drastically lower, even if they put 12+ tubes up.

I've seen many other similar strategies implemented with success as well. You've just got to go with what plays to your alliance's strengths best, while taking into consideration what works against your opponent's strengths best.

-Brando

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Norman J

I contest that tube starving will be utilized at high-level play. All teams that make it to Einstein will have such practiced human players that they should be able to drop all three shapes into the scoring zone. Such an ability renders tube starving strategies completely ineffective. In fact, if you try to starve and go to the lanes, the other team will just throw all the tubes and outscore you by a huge margin.

Most human players need some bouncing/rolling for the tubes to make it across the field. I've seen many teams block this roll/bounce at mid field and then shuffle the tube out of the grasp of their opponents. Just something to consider. I think tube strategy will be the difference maker in the high-level play.

-Brando

[Jon Stratis]

In recapping our last regional, this was something I pointed out to our team. We only really played defense in the very last match (the cable controlling our elevator snapped during autonomous, so we were unable to score curing that match), so that was really the only match we could critique the driver's defensive ability on.

No one on our alliance (actually, no one on the field!) was using the feeder lanes at all in that match. As a result, one great defensive strategy we should have employed would have been to simply push tubes into the feeder lanes. Yes, when you get down to the end, the human players are great... but even great human players can't get it in the scoring zone every time. Sometimes the tubes fall short, or hit other robots, or take an odd bounce. As a starvation strategy, pushing tubes into your own feeder lanes prevents the other team from using them (without incurring a penalty). This would clear away any tubes near the opponents scoring zone, forcing them to travel farther to find useful tubes, giving your defensive robot more room to get in their way and slow them down.

I would say this is only viable for a defensive role... you don't want to take someone who is scoring points away to attempt this.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by MaxMax161

Tube starvation/stealing is going to play a BIG part of the match strategy in any higher level match. The question is how do you do it? Which tubes, which bots in what roles, ect? What do you guys think the best way to implement a tube starvation/stealing strategy is?

You saw us in NJ use a tube stealing, tube starvation strategy which got us to the finals against, YOU guys. LOL!!!

Tube starvation, and stealing can't be a blanket strategy, but it works very effectively if your alliance has the faster minbots.
It worked really well for us.

While we didn't qualify for Championships, I'm already in St Louis and our chief strategist will be here as well. I'll stop by and talk to you guys on Thursday about if.

[rcmolloy]

We used this strategy in NJ and I know Max would probably say that tube starvation is very effective. It pretty much took us all the way to the finals when we relied on our minibots on our alliance to win. It was a great strategy up until when we played 1676 and 2016 and had a difficult time keeping up.

If the strategy is executed right, you could really win some matches. Although, it will not be like a week 1 where minibots can only be the deciding factor. The team needs to put up the right amount of tubes before considering the minibot to be a factor.

EDIT: Mike beat me to it above haha.

[Chris is me]

Tube starvation is one of my favorite plays this year, and I believe it will be extra successful at Champs.

Slowing down tube scoring is key to taking the entropy of the mini bot race out of the picture. If there's 4 logos on each side, minibots decide the match every time. Stopping the creation of a wall of logos is critical.

Like all strategies, execution is key. A balance of feeder loading, holding back tubes, selective piece starvation, and tube "stealing" is key. The strategy, unlike most strategies this year, makes full use of all 3 robots on the field. That's why I think it will be most successful at Championships.

[BandChick]

On the contrary, I think tube starving will happen more in division elimination matches, but I don't think we'll see it quite so blatantly on Einstein. It worked so well in NJ because teams weren't ready for that kind of strategy, but the game has changed a lot since then, and so have the way teams develop their strategy for the game.

I think you might see ONE elim match for each division go by the way of starvation, but I think the adaptability of the higher-level teams will result in a big change of game.

Only time will tell!

[Mark Sheridan]

I think we will see some form of tube starvation on Einstein. Though I think it will be much more dynamic. When the opportunity present itself, a team will go for it. Like if the opposing team pops a tube, or throws a tube not far enough across.

I think most teams will have two robots focus on scoring. The third robot is going to have to juggle defense, stealing tubes from the opponents side, herding stray tubes into their own alliance lane and feeding tubes to the alliance partners.

[MaxMax161]

Originally Posted by Richard

What is tube stealing? Picking up tubes on your opponents' side of the field?

Yup, drinking their milkshake as it were. Pretty much taking any tube that a opponent bot would have wanted to grab as opposed to getting an easier tube.

Originally Posted by Norman J

I contest that tube starving will be utilized at high-level play. All teams that make it to Einstein will have such practiced human players that they should be able to drop all three shapes into the scoring zone.

I personally think we have a pretty good human player but he is effectively never able to throw a triangle anywhere but to the end of the feeder lane and give or take midfield. I highly doubt that the HPs on Einstein will be able to throw all their tubes in to the scoring zone. I think the shape of choice to starve would be the triangles, squares depending on the first 15-25 seconds of the match, but never the circles.

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

One particular strategy that I feel will be extremely critical in St. Louis is starving one particular tube on the field. For example, your alliance can decide that you will NOT throw any squares on to the open field. You will either human load them, or pick them up from the lane, but you will not place squares out into the open. The defensive team on your alliance will then have one clear mission, and that is to defend all squares. Whether they push them into your lanes, or pick them up themselves, their mission will be to keep squares out of the grasp of your opponents.

I totally agree. In Virginia tube starving was the only way to win the game in the elims. For example in our first elims match the other alliance was starving triangles and won the match because of it. We couldn't make logos and it hurt. Our alliance then modified our human player strategy to compensate and went on to beat them. Another good example was when in match Q71 we were toughly outmatched but because of a good square starving strategy the other alliance couldn't make logos and we had a 81 to 81 tie. Man was that something.

Originally Posted by Phalanx

I'm already in St Louis and our chief strategist will be here as well. I'll stop by and talk to you guys on Thursday about if.

Awesome! You guys were great to work with in the qualifying matches, I'm looking forward to seeing you there.

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Like all strategies, execution is key. A balance of feeder loading, holding back tubes, selective piece starvation, and tube "stealing" is key. The strategy, unlike most strategies this year, makes full use of all 3 robots on the field.

The name of the game isn't hanging tubes it's game piece control. If you control the game pieces then you can hang as much as you want and you can stop your opponent from hanging. The good/bad thing is, as you said, it uses every robot on the field. There are a LOT of things factoring in to every decision on the field this year.


A successful tube steal does four things; gets you a tube, takes away a tube from your opponent, wastes your opponent's time, and takes more of your time (then getting a different tube). I think that, generally, the first three factors are greater then the last even when coupled with the risk of being on the losing end of a tube fight. That coupled with a good starvation policy make logos not happen, and if logos don't happen then the game is over.

[Norman J]

Originally Posted by MaxMax161

I personally think we have a pretty good human player but he is effectively never able to throw a triangle anywhere but to the end of the feeder lane and give or take midfield. I highly doubt that the HPs on Einstein will be able to throw all their tubes in to the scoring zone. I think the shape of choice to starve would be the triangles, squares depending on the first 15-25 seconds of the match, but never the circles.

I'm not our team's HP scout so I don't know how common this is, but I've watched a match in which 469's human player landed all three shapes in the scoring zone with an over-the-back throw with at least 60% success. It's possible for a great HP to feed one effective scoring robot if they're quick.

[pandamonium]

The reason behind why this strategy works isn't in my opinion any of the reasons mentioned, it is actually much more subtle. Have you ever watched 1st graders play soccer? everyone on the same team clumps around the ball making it harder for the team to actually score. When 3 robots try to pick up tubes from the same general are the same thing happens. What this strategy does is it spreads out your alliance making your team more efficient. Taking a tube from the far side of the field isn't a 2 tube swing it actually is more like a 3 tube swing because the closer tube that you could have gone for is still open for your alliance partner.

The blanket strategy this year is having a solid drive team.

also this may sound redundant but a good alliance will establish a "right of way" or some sort of flow so that robots do not get in each-others way.

[Lil' Lavery]

I certainly hope there's enough time over the weekend for the natural evolution of strategy to take place. The disparity in quality of machines during the qualification matches makes me a little bit hesitant that it will.

But tube starvation can and will be effective in the right scenarios, but by no means is it an end-all, be-all strategy. Teams that are going to rely on it as their primary strategy without an idea of how to counter their opponents are going to be in for a rude awakening once they reach the eliminations.

And the human players are almost a game within itself.