Tube starvation/stealing

[MaxMax161]

Originally Posted by Richard

What is tube stealing? Picking up tubes on your opponents' side of the field?

Yup, drinking their milkshake as it were. Pretty much taking any tube that a opponent bot would have wanted to grab as opposed to getting an easier tube.

Originally Posted by Norman J

I contest that tube starving will be utilized at high-level play. All teams that make it to Einstein will have such practiced human players that they should be able to drop all three shapes into the scoring zone.

I personally think we have a pretty good human player but he is effectively never able to throw a triangle anywhere but to the end of the feeder lane and give or take midfield. I highly doubt that the HPs on Einstein will be able to throw all their tubes in to the scoring zone. I think the shape of choice to starve would be the triangles, squares depending on the first 15-25 seconds of the match, but never the circles.

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

One particular strategy that I feel will be extremely critical in St. Louis is starving one particular tube on the field. For example, your alliance can decide that you will NOT throw any squares on to the open field. You will either human load them, or pick them up from the lane, but you will not place squares out into the open. The defensive team on your alliance will then have one clear mission, and that is to defend all squares. Whether they push them into your lanes, or pick them up themselves, their mission will be to keep squares out of the grasp of your opponents.

I totally agree. In Virginia tube starving was the only way to win the game in the elims. For example in our first elims match the other alliance was starving triangles and won the match because of it. We couldn't make logos and it hurt. Our alliance then modified our human player strategy to compensate and went on to beat them. Another good example was when in match Q71 we were toughly outmatched but because of a good square starving strategy the other alliance couldn't make logos and we had a 81 to 81 tie. Man was that something.

Originally Posted by Phalanx

I'm already in St Louis and our chief strategist will be here as well. I'll stop by and talk to you guys on Thursday about if.

Awesome! You guys were great to work with in the qualifying matches, I'm looking forward to seeing you there.

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Like all strategies, execution is key. A balance of feeder loading, holding back tubes, selective piece starvation, and tube "stealing" is key. The strategy, unlike most strategies this year, makes full use of all 3 robots on the field.

The name of the game isn't hanging tubes it's game piece control. If you control the game pieces then you can hang as much as you want and you can stop your opponent from hanging. The good/bad thing is, as you said, it uses every robot on the field. There are a LOT of things factoring in to every decision on the field this year.


A successful tube steal does four things; gets you a tube, takes away a tube from your opponent, wastes your opponent's time, and takes more of your time (then getting a different tube). I think that, generally, the first three factors are greater then the last even when coupled with the risk of being on the losing end of a tube fight. That coupled with a good starvation policy make logos not happen, and if logos don't happen then the game is over.

[Norman J]

Originally Posted by MaxMax161

I personally think we have a pretty good human player but he is effectively never able to throw a triangle anywhere but to the end of the feeder lane and give or take midfield. I highly doubt that the HPs on Einstein will be able to throw all their tubes in to the scoring zone. I think the shape of choice to starve would be the triangles, squares depending on the first 15-25 seconds of the match, but never the circles.

I'm not our team's HP scout so I don't know how common this is, but I've watched a match in which 469's human player landed all three shapes in the scoring zone with an over-the-back throw with at least 60% success. It's possible for a great HP to feed one effective scoring robot if they're quick.

[Lil' Lavery]

I certainly hope there's enough time over the weekend for the natural evolution of strategy to take place. The disparity in quality of machines during the qualification matches makes me a little bit hesitant that it will.

But tube starvation can and will be effective in the right scenarios, but by no means is it an end-all, be-all strategy. Teams that are going to rely on it as their primary strategy without an idea of how to counter their opponents are going to be in for a rude awakening once they reach the eliminations.

And the human players are almost a game within itself.

[AndrewMcRadical]

Our team played tube scarcity through almost all of Cleveland, worked well especially against productive offensive robots. I HP for our team when we throw, and triangles are definitely the most difficult to throw effectively. I can get them to our minibot pole 90% of the time but not too much farther. The squares and circles I can hit the other wall with (soccer player). tube scarcity is a quality strategy if you can dedicate one alliance member to lurk outside the opponents' scoring zone for the majority of the match. also, triangles are not always the best option. if the opposing HPs are weak, scarce circles can prevent an ubertube cover, preventing even more points by the opposing alliance. it is best to make a call within the first ten or fifteen seconds of a match, but choosing white in the proper circumstance can save twelve points a game when done properly.

[GGCO]

I think you'll see one robot just dominate the field by collecting tubes and harassing their opponents as they pick them up.

If this robot is good enough, I think we'll end up seeing two of it's opponents sent over to stop it.

Now I'm thinking about it, if the defense is good enough on both teams, the 3rd robot on each alliance might just end up harassing and playing defense on each other.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

And the human players are almost a game within itself.

The Skill Level of some of the Human Players at this point in the season can essentially make a tube starvation strategy useless.

I'd be willing to say that most of the teams on Einstein will have Human players that reliably throw past the caution line 9 out of 10 times.

[rmhooks573]

the strategy of tube starvation of a shape is a strategy that can really backfire on you though; which happened in MSC. i think that the strategy will be used a lot but a lot of teams will see how it can backfire and we will for sure see an all out brawl of who can have the perfect strategy

[kornjones]

I know that our team used tube starving very successfully at the VA regional with 1676 and 25. Now this was for multiple reasons and these reasons will definitely not work for every alliance, it just happened to for our alliance. Our bot can only pick up from the feeder station (hindsight is 20/20) but 1676 and 25 could both pick up and score successfully from the floor, so instead of us all trying to pick up and score tubes on the same pegs at the same time (I believe someone said this was analogous to 1st graders playing soccer which is spot on), we went and picked up squares from the feeder station, 25 scored circles and triangles and if i remember right, 1676 stole whatever pieces didn't make it from the other alliance's feeder to their zone.

surely not a blanket strategy (if a successful one exists) but it worked well for our alliance

[rmhooks573]

the only thing that could virtually go wrong for the strategy is overusage. teams catch onto it and then BOOM!

[rcmolloy]

Originally Posted by kornjones

I know that our team used tube starving very successfully at the VA regional with 1676 and 25. Now this was for multiple reasons and these reasons will definitely not work for every alliance, it just happened to for our alliance. Our bot can only pick up from the feeder station (hindsight is 20/20) but 1676 and 25 could both pick up and score successfully from the floor, so instead of us all trying to pick up and score tubes on the same pegs at the same time (I believe someone said this was analogous to 1st graders playing soccer which is spot on), we went and picked up squares from the feeder station, 25 scored circles and triangles and if i remember right, 1676 stole whatever pieces didn't make it from the other alliance's feeder to their zone.

surely not a blanket strategy (if a successful one exists) but it worked well for our alliance

Even with that, 25 used a similar strategy in our match and we used it throughout NJ and Philly depending on which bots we were playing with but in STL this strategy could be really effective for a team with great bots.

DS1 (Left) is in front of mainly squares and circles. DS2 (Middle) is in front of Triangles and Squares and DS3 (Right) is in front of Triangles and Circles. From there, the teams would go and get their respective game pieces since they were the stations right in front of them. It helps if all 3 bots can score and really takes the confusion of trying to score across partners.

Most of the time though, 2 teams will take a single rack area and try and fill it up. If you're stuck on Einstein with 3 good bots, take this to your advantage.

[Bryany]

So what kind of strategy is useful to counter a tube starvation?

Alternately, what happens when both alliances both try to starve the same shape?

[Blackphantom91]

Originally Posted by Bryany

So what kind of strategy is useful to counter a tube starvation?

Alternately, what happens when both alliances both try to starve the same shape?

Feeder slot and If you know ahead of time let your human players know to not throw the tubes because of the starvation 1114 and 2056 did a successful counter of this in waterloo I believe and it was quite effective.

[Blackphantom91]

Originally Posted by rcmolloy

Even with that, 25 used a similar strategy in our match and we used it throughout NJ and Philly depending on which bots we were playing with but in STL this strategy could be really effective for a team with great bots.

Starving against good robots are really hard due to the feeder slot good teams will pick up on that your trying to starve them and go there. You cant block the lanes otherwise its a red card. By starving a team of tubes you also starve yourself in a way. If you are the alliance doing the starving you better know you have a faster minibots because it may come down to it. But like very strategey it has its advantages and disadvantages.

[Dancin103]

Originally Posted by thefro526

The Skill Level of some of the Human Players at this point in the season can essentially make a tube starvation strategy useless.

I'd be willing to say that most of the teams on Einstein will have Human players that reliably throw past the caution line 9 out of 10 times.

I agree with this 100%. If you have a human player that can through the tubes clear across the field into the zone across the caution line, it will be a game changer.

[Gary Dillard]

Originally Posted by Dancin103

I agree with this 100%. If you have a human player that can through the tubes clear across the field into the zone across the caution line, it will be a game changer.

One thing that is kind of an unmeasured quantity - because of its difficulty - is blocking the throws. The high scoring bots are generally pretty narrow vertically, but if you were a REALLY good driver you could in theory play soccer goalie somewhere deep, block the gamepieces mid-air with your arm extended and then herd them away. I doubt that the human players that are throwing across the field are putting enough of an arc to go over a 12'+ robot at the caution line.