Bills Blog- Yes, I’m already counting down to kickoff 2012

[elemental]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

I think what is really interesting and bugs me is, like you mentioned, FRC is the more spectator friendly competition as you can see it from the stands and draws more crowd/attention over FTC and FLL by a LOT! Why then since we have an arena they are having to set up bleachers for FRC in the pits.

To defend FLL, they play on Einstein which is already set up for FRC and FLL draws more from the international community.
However, I do envy FTC if they get to play ALL of their matches on the dome floor. I feel that FTC would thrive in a more "intimate" location because of the fact that it is easier to see their robots up close.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by elemental

To defend FLL, they play on Einstein which is already set up for FRC and FLL draws more from the international community.
However, I do envy FTC if they get to play ALL of their matches on the dome floor. I feel that FTC would thrive in a more "intimate" location because of the fact that it is easier to see their robots up close.

I agree, I was using FLL as a spectator reference and not a kicking them off the dome since they are only using Einstein whereas FTC is growing and could grow into more of the dome in the coming years.

[Tetraman]

To defend both FTC and FLL, You have to realize that they are playing their FIRST championships alongside FRC. If there is anything that is to be learned from this past year, it's that FRC is no longer FIRST's favorite and we are going to have to get along with our younger brothers and sisters.

FLL can play their entire matches with all of their fields on Einstein, and thats good. It still holds up. FTC needs space for their championship to be in the dome. Well, it's kinda silly to just have one FTC field set up for their Elimination matches, so they set up multiple ones. Look at the scope of FTC v. FRC. FRC takes up SO much space not because of the size of the field, but the field of competitors. It makes more sense to put all of FTC in the light of the dome in the same way as FLL gets their light in the dome. FRC can take the hit.

FRC is really spoiled. We are pretty much the last leg of a student in FIRST. From then on you become a mentor or volunteer. So we are given the fanfare and the spotlight. But FIRST isn't FRC anymore. We need to make way for FTC and FLL, and putting half of FTC or most of FTC in the pits is hiding them from view. It sucks that you have to play the championship in the pits, but in all honesty with a little extra seating the problem is solved. Remember, for some FTC teams, FTC is their FRC.

FTC would fail if we kept them in the dark of the pits, and they would be better served to have all of their matches played on the big stage. FTC needs support from more FRC teams, as FTC is a "Budget FRC". We should be embracing FTC as on FRC's level and giving them the Championship experience as we have. If anything, we will learn that the World Championship needs a larger venue to support all of FIRST. Let's get cozy with all of FIRST, rather then ask FTC to get cozy with themselves off in the corner away from us FRC teams and our big Dome fields.

Here is a thought: What if all four FRC divisions were played in the pits, and lets say there is enough seating for enough people to enjoy the games?

[DSM33]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

If you want to do Championships right do it the way they do it in Michigan.

I agree and not just because I'm from Michigan
The Michigan system works great and for anyone who saw any part of the MSC saw that the level of competition was waaaaay higher than most of the regionals and even some matches at worlds
At Karthik's conference he said that for FIRST to succeed as a sport the number of mediocre teams needs to decrease so the level of competition goes up and the FIRST in Michigan system does that

Originally Posted by BrendanB

I think what is really interesting and bugs me is, like you mentioned, FRC is the more spectator friendly competition as you can see it from the stands and draws more crowd/attention over FTC and FLL by a LOT! Why then since we have an arena they are having to set up bleachers for FRC in the pits.

FRC is definitely the more spectator friendly sport since both FLL and FTC fields are too small to actually see any action from the stands. FTC and FLL really benefit from close seating positions since the crowd would be able to see the matches without having to rely on the video screens
also all of the general public who come to check out FIRST (not to hurt FTC or FLL or anything like that) wont be excited by minirobots on the FTC and FLL fields but by the big, powerful, exciting big bots on the FRC fields

I can understand wanting to promote FTC and FLL (especially since FTC sorta takes a backseat to FRC and VEX) but you have to know what the audience wants yknow?

thats my 2 cents on the deal

[Vikesrock]

Maybe it's just me but I can't really seem to wrap my head around this whole "the dome is more special" thing. I didn't really notice any difference at all as a drive coach between the dome and pit fields other than a shorter commute to the pit field. I guess I'll have to ask my drivers if they thought there was any difference.

Logistically it makes no sense to put FTC in the Dome and FRC in the pits. The volume of spectators for the FRC matches makes way more sense in the dome. The visibility of the robots makes way more sense to put FRC in the dome. The FTC robots are just too small to make sense in the dome. They would be much better suited to the pit field setup where the stands are much closer to the field.

FLL is fine on Einstein because you can't see those robots without a camera blowing up the action no matter where you put them and Einstein isn't being used during that time anyway.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Tetraman

FTC would fail if we kept them in the dark of the pits, and they would be better served to have all of their matches played on the big stage.

Having worked with the FTC KOP this year, I'd say the motors alone can allow FTC to fail.

*rimshot*

Originally Posted by Tetraman

Here is a thought: What if all four FRC divisions were played in the pits, and lets say there is enough seating for enough people to enjoy the games?

Then why not rent out the largest convention center in the world instead of the dome/con center combo? Also, Vegas baby!

[Mark Sheridan]

To me FRC is like a varsity sport. You would not want a varsity football game moved because JV cross country wanted to use the stadium too (I ran high school cross country by the way). I understand many of the teams in the FTC are from smaller schools who don't have the resources to run a FRC team. However, FRC is the bigger program with greater crowd appeal with the top programs in the world. It think FRC deserves to be front and center much more the FTC and FLL. There is a reason football gets top bill in America over cross-country, I love cross country but football has much better entertainment value. I think if most of us here had a choice to watch a FRC or an FTC match, we would chose FRC.

[JaneYoung]

Taken from the list of bullets in the blog:

- The highest combined match score was 131-122, on Newton
- Highest individual alliance score was 146, also on Newton

For information's sake, it would be nice to include the teams' names and FRC numbers that achieved these scores if they are going to be noted in the blog and commented on.

Jane

[lemiant]

Assuming that St Louis is the same size as Atlanta. Then all 5 fields plus FTC and FLL do indeed fit in the dome, so I'm not sure what Bill is talking about.

[EricH]

So if CARD takes off and becomes a full-on competition, do they get dome space?

Tetraman, I'd actually look at it more like NFL/CFL (Canadian Football League) or NHL/CHL (Central Hockey League). In each sport, both leagues are professional. But you NEVER hear about CFL teams or CHL teams unless you're in their towns (at least, for those of us in the US). Why?

Because they aren't the "flagship" leagues. CHL teams can affiliate with NHL teams, like a farm system. But NHL gets all the attention, even if the play is just about the same. For CFL, there are 32 NFL teams that command most of the attention in the US.

FRC is the "flagship" competition in FIRST. There are more FLL and FTC teams, but they are not yet the flagship program. Yet. As such, FRC should get a large portion of the spotlight. But, just as CFL gets a (albeit brief) spot in the halftime of Monday Night Football, FTC and FLL do need their exposure. The question is, how do you get them that exposure without putting your flagship program entirely in the pits (and by the way, all four FRC fields in the pits will be a great way to cause a lot of complaining about an overpriced event).

What is the solution? I don't know.

How about this: Every FRC division has a companion FTC division, playing right next to it. FRC spectators can watch FTC matches during field resets; FTC spectators can do the same thing. There *should* be enough space to pull that off with one field for each in the pits. This opens up FTC a bit; FLL could be substituted on one or two divisions if FTC is lacking in teams. Folks coming for the big robots see the smaller ones too.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by EricH

How about this: Every FRC division has a companion FTC division, playing right next to it. FRC spectators can watch FTC matches during field resets; FTC spectators can do the same thing. There *should* be enough space to pull that off with one field for each in the pits. This opens up FTC a bit; FLL could be substituted on one or two divisions if FTC is lacking in teams. Folks coming for the big robots see the smaller ones too.

That makes too much sense and would be way too much fun for everyone.

Jane

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by nighterfighter

So, veteran teams get shafted out of the new cRIO, unless we buy a rookie kit or purchase the upgrade?

Darn.

Why bother upgrading? It doesn't perform any new function, is only 10 oz lighter (and most of that loss is taken up by another transformer) and actually performs less functions than the standard C-Rio.

This summer we’re going to be taking a long hard look at the future of Championship (CMP). At the current rate of growth for FRC, we are going to face a space crunch at CMP in a few years. Consider this. At each regional, six teams earn a space at CMP (the winning alliance, the Engineering Inspiration winner, the Chairman’s Award winner and the Rookie All Star team). This year we had 48 regionals. Add eighteen teams from the Michigan State CMP (When the District pilot began, the State CMP replaced three Regional events.) and you get a total of 306 teams. 352 teams competed this year. Not every team who qualifies to come to CMP can make it, so there are always a few empty slots, but as we continue to add new regionals each year, we are eventually going to run out of room. In the short run, there will be fewer and fewer spaces for non-qualifying teams at CMP. In the long run, we’re going to have to figure out a new system for determining which teams come to CMP.

Emphasis mine. Does this mean that we will all be taking up a similar-to-Michigan approach in coming years?

[DSM33]

Originally Posted by EricH

What is the solution? I don't know.

How about this: Every FRC division has a companion FTC division, playing right next to it. FRC spectators can watch FTC matches during field resets; FTC spectators can do the same thing. There *should* be enough space to pull that off with one field for each in the pits. This opens up FTC a bit; FLL could be substituted on one or two divisions if FTC is lacking in teams. Folks coming for the big robots see the smaller ones too.

Obviously you know

it would actually spark some interest in the FTC program as some FRC teams would end up watching the competition between matches!

pure genius.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Taken from the list of bullets in the blog:

- The highest combined match score was 131-122, on Newton
- Highest individual alliance score was 146, also on Newton

For information's sake, it would be nice to include the teams' names and FRC numbers that achieved these scores if they are going to be noted in the blog and commented on.

Jane

I'm guessing he was only looking at qualifications. There were actually two alliances that scored 146. 148, 1538, 1503 in Newton qualifications and 254, 111, 973 in Galileo (eliminations). The highest individual alliance score was actually also the Galileo alliance (254, 111, 973) on Einstein, 147.

[rsisk]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

Taken from the list of bullets in the blog:

- The highest combined match score was 131-122, on Newton
- Highest individual alliance score was 146, also on Newton

For information's sake, it would be nice to include the teams' names and FRC numbers that achieved these scores if they are going to be noted in the blog and commented on.

Jane

131-122 Newton QF4.2
   122-RED
   2481 - Robotteers
   148 - Robowranglers
   234 - Cyber Blue
   131-BLUE
   2122 - Team Tators
   1730 - Team Driven
   11 - MORT

146 Newton Q-39
   148 - Robowranglers
   1538 - Holy Cows
   1503 - Spartonics