Bills Blog- Yes, I’m already counting down to kickoff 2012

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by StevenB

I think he meant to say, "Robot inspectors inspected 352 hostbots and approximately 650 minibots, for a total of 352 robot inspections." Did I read the game manual too many times?

Well, technically, 0 robots were inspected. You don't inspect robots. You inspect hostbot and you inspect minibots.

Unless you go casual and figure both can be considered robots.

[ouellet348]

I'm sorry to those that feel that FTC deserves some spotlight in the dome but I watched their finals matches while giving a tour and MAYBE sixty people including my fifteen person tour group watched those finals. It was sad, honestly if that's how many people regularly watch FTC they could do it in a small area of the pits with half the bleachers. Either something was off or FTC has almost no viewers.

FRC is the flagship competition. It is the "varsity sport of the mind", while giving VIP tours I can tell you that only one group wanted to see FTC really and that was an FLL team before they saw FRC and ran over to watch it. FRC has higher cost, rewards, and an overall experience. Having fields in the pits made it congested and loud, as well as dangerous. While inspecting (I had a busy week) I could hardly hear some teams in their pit. Keep FRC on center stage where we belong, let FTC have their smaller stage as they are mini-FRC. Let FRC stay where it had for the past 19 years up until this one.

As someone who loves FIRST I understand wanting to show off FTC and make them feel special and integrated, but it can be done in safer better ways.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Nemo

Incidentally, is there a good thread for that particular political discussion? I am interested in it.

Search around the threads that were around in 2008--that's when the big FRC/IFI split happened. (Note: IFI was as blindsided as everyone else was.)

And no, there isn't a good thread. It's not exactly something that people can keep there emotions in check on. Or rather, not something people can stop baseless speculation on, as you'll probably find when you search up those threads.

[pathew100]

*Puts on Tinfoil Hat*

What if the eventual plan could be to merge FRC and FTC?

Robots of a size in between the two. Fields in size in between the two.

(I'm not saying it's a good idea but it's an interesting one...)

[NickE]

FIRST only has one program with the word "Competition" in the name. If FIRST really wants to change the culture and to be cool and exciting, it should make sure to keep the Competition front and center.

From the perspective of a team member, I don't mind the pit fields. However, they are dramatically less impressive when introducing FIRST to new team members, sponsors, parents, the public, etc.

[J93Wagner]

Originally Posted by Nick Bouressa

That is the way to do it. Also to make room for CARD you could get rid of Einstein all together play the FRC finals on a division field and put FLL on the concert stage. You may have to work out some bugs with the stage compatibility, but it should make plenty of room and it could actually work.

I like how you're trying to fit everything into the dome, however, at the moment, I highly doubt that giving CARD (or whatever it turns into) at this point a full field in the dome is the best choice. Once it has had a successful official season as a FIRST competition, as this past season for them wasn't quite officially part of FIRST, (although FIRST did know about it well before hand), and has a sizable team base registered (~30 or more?) then I would start to consider it.

Also, I would say that getting rid of Einstein and putting FLL on the "concert stage" which we aren't even sure will be there isn't the best idea ever either. I'd rather suggest that some other locale outside the dome should be found if moving FLL off Einstein is considered.

I would also suggest that if moving FTC is considered, make it so that it either goes out the dome or gets moved right next to the FRC fields as distractions and entertainment between matches as suggested before. And personally, I think that would have more of an effect on FTC than the minibots did this year. Positive or negative would have yet to be seen.

Originally Posted by Cory

If FIRST is not held accountable for their failures or shortcomings, what motivation do they have to make things better?

Every time I have heard something to that extent or that VEX is better, I think, "Why?" Granted, I haven't seen much on either side of the table as my career in robotics competitions started with FRC, so would you please explain what you mean by failures and shortcomings as I am still confused by my unanswered "Why". It would be very much appreciated if you do so.

Originally Posted by NickE

FIRST only has one program with the word "Competition" in the name. If FIRST really wants to change the culture and to be cool and exciting, it should make sure to keep the Competition front and center.

From the perspective of a team member, I don't mind the pit fields. However, they are dramatically less impressive when introducing FIRST to new team members, sponsors, parents, the public, etc.

To your first comment, remember, FIRST still has to keep the focus on gracious professionalism if they want to change the culture and then keep it roughly the same year after year. Go too far on the competition and people may lose sight that it isn't all about the robot.

And to your second statement, I would certainly agree.

EDIT: Wait, did I really just spend 20 minutes typing this post? Eh, whatever...

[rwood359]

Originally Posted by NickE

However, they are dramatically less impressive when introducing FIRST to new team members, sponsors, parents, the public, etc.

Amen. We had friends that flew in to attend what turned out to be the day we were on the pits field. Their experience (behind safety glasses) wasn't quite the NBA experience that I had advertised.

[NickE]

Originally Posted by J93Wagner

Remember, FIRST still has to keep the balance on gracious professionalism and keep it roughly the same year after year.

What exactly do you mean by gracious professionalism in this situation? It seems much more professional to give the teams what they paid for. FRC teams paid at least 5x more to attend the event, wouldn't it be more professional to give them dome priority.

FTC is not a spectator sport in the same way FRC is. It is a Challenge, not a Competition and the matches are hard to watch from a distance (like the distance from the field to the stands in the dome). It would be much more professional of FIRST to promote its top-tier programs.

[J93Wagner]

Originally Posted by NickE

What exactly do you mean by gracious professionalism? It seems much more professional to give the teams what they paid for. FRC teams paid at least 5x more to attend the event, wouldn't it be more professional to give them dome priority.

I was referring to the competition portion of your post. Competition, yes. Super fierce competition that gets people all riled up and snapping at each others throats, no. Like I said, balance, and sorry if I wasn't clear in the first place.

[KelliV]

While involved as a student I spent 2 years on an FLL team, 4 years on an FRC team, and 2 years on an FTC (then FVC, more commonly known as VEX) team and being a part of every team I learned something different from each experience and think they all deserve the Championship Dome spotlight.

Let's look at the money end of it, since profit is on a lot of people's minds.

There were a total of 14,000 FLL teams in 2009, with the $225 registration fee alone that is $3,150,000. (this fee does not cover your competitions, that is a separate fee and varies)

There were a total of 2065 FRC teams in 2011 with a registration $5000 alone makes $10,325,000 in fees (and that includes the kit of parts, each FLL kit is $450, and FTC kit is $799.)

There were 1111 FTC teams in 2009, with a $275 registration fee that is $305,525.

While the pricing varies with each program, something that cannot be argued is the breadth of knowledge that participants gain by being a part of this fantastic organization. I think that all competitions should have their chance to shine on the floor, yes I do understand that moving pits, teams, and spectators is a large inconvenience, however, if it means more students can experience what I did during my high school and middle school years then so be it.

Each child deserves a chance to play on the big stage, even if they don't build the big robot. FRC may be a flagship but that does not mean the others do not exist, and do not deserve the same recognition as the rest of the program. After all, the R in FIRST stands for Recognition doesn't it?

-Kelli

[Racer26]

Its sad. A few years ago, some 40-odd VERY well respected mentors, with hundreds of years of FRC experience between them, sent FIRST HQ a letter pleading for more transparency. Obviously, those pleas have fallen on deaf ears.

There is a post on CD somewhere about this letter, including its body.

IIRC it mentioned specifically the fallout with IFI, and the switch to the cRIO, and more. I think people aren't wrong in saying that if there were a competing product to FRC (because thats what it is, its a product), there would be teams jumping ship left right and center. I almost think HQ has lost some of the vision that FIRST was built on.

Dave stated on CD that he left the GDC for personal reasons relating to GDC decisions he couldn't get behind. Maybe HQ needs a wakeup call.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by KelliV

<snip>
Let's look at the money end of it, since profit is on a lot of people's minds.
<snip>
There were a total of 275 FRC teams in 2011 with a registration $5000 alone makes $1,375,000 in fees (and that includes the kit of parts, each FLL kit is $450, and FTC kit is $799.)
<snip>

-Kelli

There were 2065 active FRC teams in 2011: http://frclinks.com/t
352 teams attended CMP: http://frclinks.com/e/cmp

2065 x $5000 = $10,325,000.
352 x $5000 = $1,760,000
Total FRC revenues = $12,085,000

Thats before you factor in the some 20-40% of teams that attend 2 or more events, with additional events costing $4000.

[KelliV]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

Thats before you factor in the some 20-40% of teams that attend 2 or more events, with additional events costing $4000.

Corrected, math isn't my strong point (I went to art school for a reason) Events are not included because I did not include the event costs for FLL or FTC either as they vary per event. To give an example to include my 25 FLL kids in this year's season I need two teams as there is a student limit and it will cost about $8000.00 but that number can vary.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by KelliV

Corrected, math isn't my strong point (I went to art school for a reason) Events are not included because I did not include the event costs for FLL or FTC either as they vary per event. To give an example to include my 25 FLL kids in this year's season I need two teams as there is a student limit and it will cost about $8000.00 but that number can vary.

I count $710 + $50-150 per event, per FLL team based on numbers from: https://gofll.usfirst.org/pages/prod...on_and_pricing

If all teams are buying the field setup kit, and a robot kit w/battery.

To reach $8000 for two teams, you're saying each team is going to an estimated 22 events? That doesn't sound right at all.

[KelliV]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

To reach $8000 for two teams, you're saying each team is going to an estimated 22 events? That doesn't sound right at all.

$300 per event, plus the same type of funds FRC teams have to worry about (lunches, keeping the school open, busses to events etc) and two JFLL teams.

But this isn't a funding war, I was just providing the information, yes FRC is more I get it. That does not mean that others should be banned from experiencing the Dome just because they cannot afford the big program, they also participated in Engineering right?