Bills Blog- Yes, I’m already counting down to kickoff 2012

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by KelliV

<snip>
Let's look at the money end of it, since profit is on a lot of people's minds.
<snip>
There were a total of 275 FRC teams in 2011 with a registration $5000 alone makes $1,375,000 in fees (and that includes the kit of parts, each FLL kit is $450, and FTC kit is $799.)
<snip>

-Kelli

There were 2065 active FRC teams in 2011: http://frclinks.com/t
352 teams attended CMP: http://frclinks.com/e/cmp

2065 x $5000 = $10,325,000.
352 x $5000 = $1,760,000
Total FRC revenues = $12,085,000

Thats before you factor in the some 20-40% of teams that attend 2 or more events, with additional events costing $4000.

[KelliV]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

Thats before you factor in the some 20-40% of teams that attend 2 or more events, with additional events costing $4000.

Corrected, math isn't my strong point (I went to art school for a reason) Events are not included because I did not include the event costs for FLL or FTC either as they vary per event. To give an example to include my 25 FLL kids in this year's season I need two teams as there is a student limit and it will cost about $8000.00 but that number can vary.

[Racer26]

Originally Posted by KelliV

Corrected, math isn't my strong point (I went to art school for a reason) Events are not included because I did not include the event costs for FLL or FTC either as they vary per event. To give an example to include my 25 FLL kids in this year's season I need two teams as there is a student limit and it will cost about $8000.00 but that number can vary.

I count $710 + $50-150 per event, per FLL team based on numbers from: https://gofll.usfirst.org/pages/prod...on_and_pricing

If all teams are buying the field setup kit, and a robot kit w/battery.

To reach $8000 for two teams, you're saying each team is going to an estimated 22 events? That doesn't sound right at all.

[KelliV]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

To reach $8000 for two teams, you're saying each team is going to an estimated 22 events? That doesn't sound right at all.

$300 per event, plus the same type of funds FRC teams have to worry about (lunches, keeping the school open, busses to events etc) and two JFLL teams.

But this isn't a funding war, I was just providing the information, yes FRC is more I get it. That does not mean that others should be banned from experiencing the Dome just because they cannot afford the big program, they also participated in Engineering right?

[Racer26]

Just ran the full numbers for FRC in case someone cares:

Total FRC attendance: 2394 regionals, 356 MI Districts, 64 MSC, 352 CMP
Total FRC teams: 2065 (1894 + 171 MI)[~420 rookies in 2011]

Which means:

First Regional: 1894 x $5000 = $9,470,000
2nd/3rd Regionals: 500 x $4000 = $2,000,000
Championship: 352 x $5000 = $1,760,000
MI 1st/2nd District: 171 x $5000 = $855,000
MI 3rd District: 14 x $500 = $7,000
MI State Championship: 64 x $4000 = $256,000
Rookie Kit extra cost: 420 x $1500 = $630,000

Total FRC revenue: $14,978,000.

[JesseK]

This doesn't really address Bill's Blog, but perhaps it adds some objectiveness to the discussion.

I love the idea of a 'qualifier'-'regional'-'championship' model; it solves more than the FRC overcrowding issues (more engineering iterations for the money). Yet it's just not sustainable in many areas of the country simply because large quantities of FRC teams aren't sustainable in many areas of the country. If we really wanted less FTC at the championships and more FRC of higher quality at the championships, we'd figure out how to drive the costs down so we could have that model in more areas of the country. Yet so long as FIRST is hung up on having their Regional events at $250,000 venues, we shouldn't hold our breath expecting lower registration fees to ever happen.

---

I don't understand how anyone can think, from a black-and-white perspective, that FTC is better than VRC, or vice-versa. Yes, VEX parts and avenues for innovation steamroll those of TETRIX. Yes, the value for VEX is higher, part for part, event for event. Yet experience-for-experience is just about the same from a student perspective. At least regionally, I've asked the many VRC kids I mentored and their responses are just about the same as the FTC kids I've mentored that never did FRC. The only real differentiator for mentors is value, which isn't a student issue.

Yet, from what I've witnessed, the unstated dichotomy of FRC mentors who argue about "value" between VRC and FTC is that we throw "value" out the door when we talk about FRC (see the 1st paragraph). Simply put, the overall FRC program is THE BEST QUALITY for its age group. That is why we don't care much about its dollar value. FIRST seems to understand that part very well, which is why they don't have a goal to lower the entry costs of FRC.

Thus, I think we should focus the discussion more on FRC and how FIRST is going to impact FRC with decisions made about FTC rather than make the discussion about the coolness of either FTC/VRC. Since that sentence is hard to read in one breath:

We should guide the discussion based upon how we are impacted in FRC rather than based upon how much we can squash FTC.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by KelliV

To give an example to include my 25 FLL kids in this year's season I need two teams ...

Err, three teams? Max of 10 per team.

[Frenchie461]

Has anyone considered the possibility of simply getting rid of FTC. If FIRST could get FRC affordable so teams could do more with less. Get rid of the official FIRST lighting and sound people. For example, at the BMR, college students would have done just as good of a job on lighting and sound for a whole lot less. With several changes like that, a regional could be down to 1500 or so per team, making it a lot more accessible to schools that are only able to afford FTC. If a FRC team was only twice an FTC team (I'm assuming FTC is like Vex where schools have multiple teams), schools would choose FRC.

tl;dr make first cheap, get rid of FTC

[J93Wagner]

Originally Posted by Frenchie461

tl;dr make first cheap, get rid of FTC

I would dispute your assertion that replacing paid personnel (IF that's how they do it at regionals, and I doubt that) with volunteer students would help as the real cost is really in the venue. Change the process of Qualifying into CMP with a District/Regional/CMP model and overall costs to teams will go down.

Also, I wouldn't say, "Get rid of FTC," because FTC does have things to offer. If schools decide that FRC (or VRC for that matter) is better than FTC and FTC slowly dies, so be it. But deciding to kill FTC when it is still growing like it is now doesn't make any sense to me.

[Mark Sheridan]

FTC is not the problem. I think most people here see very obvious solutions to the problems and can't understand why FIRST see these solutions.

I am tired of FIRST's excuse after excuse. They thought they had a good idea that did not turn out well in the end. You would think FIRST would be excited about design iteration. Hopeful the rotating GDC member will give new perspectives not only in game design but how teams look at FIRST.

I think we all know that FIRST is full of well intentioned people. We just have high standards of excellence for them. If you think the politics of FIRST is bad, you have no idea how bad high school sport politics can get. I think we are lucky, but that won't stop me from complaining when I see a problem.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by J93Wagner

I would dispute your assertion that replacing paid personnel (IF that's how they do it at regionals, and I doubt that) with volunteer students would help as the real cost is really in the venue.

You're oh so sadly mistaken. AV at tradtional regionals isn't just paid professionals. It's paid professionals shipped in from New England along with all their equipment. To the tune of mid five figures for the Lonestar regional. As has been mandated by FIRST HQ for a while now, since they have a national contract with the AV company. If I recall correctly AV is the biggest or second biggest expense at Lonestar. So it's far from insignificant, and can dwarf the actual venue costs.

[J93Wagner]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

You're oh so sadly mistaken. AV at tradtional regionals isn't just paid professionals. It's paid professionals shipped in from New England along with all their equipment. To the tune of mid five figures for the Lonestar regional. As has been mandated by FIRST HQ for a while now, since they have a national contract with the AV company. If I recall correctly AV is the biggest or second biggest expense at Lonestar. So it's far from insignificant, and can dwarf the actual venue costs.

Well, that certainly compounds things...

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Frenchie461

tl;dr make first cheap, get rid of FTC

When will the people of and in FIRST understand that it is not all about the money? It's about the commitment. No matter how CHEAP you make FRC, you will not change the amount of commitment teams need to remain viable at the FRC level.

I know of many teams, who are native to my state and locality, that have folded due to a lack of commitment. The money was there, but their hearts just weren't in it, so they went to the D-League of FIRST, FTC.

I don't mean to sound too cut-and-dry, but you won't "get" how to manage an FRC team until you realize it's not about the money. I've seen frugal teams reach finals and loaded teams miss elims. You can't pour money into the human element.

[alexhenning]

Originally Posted by Frenchie461

Has anyone considered the possibility of simply getting rid of FTC. If FIRST could get FRC affordable so teams could do more with less. Get rid of the official FIRST lighting and sound people. For example, at the BMR, college students would have done just as good of a job on lighting and sound for a whole lot less. With several changes like that, a regional could be down to 1500 or so per team, making it a lot more accessible to schools that are only able to afford FTC. If a FRC team was only twice an FTC team (I'm assuming FTC is like Vex where schools have multiple teams), schools would choose FRC.

tl;dr make first cheap, get rid of FTC

FRC is the flagship of FIRST, and as much as FIRST wants to help FTC, I don't think it should be put ahead of FRC. If anything, FIRST should help the FTC teams become FRC teams. The FTC teams for the most part have exceptional students who are motivated. They have wonderful mentor. However, they lack funding.

FIRST should help the FTC teams become aware of sponsorship opportunities. For instance:
This year, JCPenny gave ~$6,500 to rookies.
There's also the NASA grants for about ~$5,000.
PTC should be offering sponsorships next year.
Tons of local businesses.
Assuming FTC teams already have $2,000 a year in funding, they "just" need one of those grants and another $1,500. The money could be obtained by fundraising, a big sponsor, several small local sponsors. That's assuming you live within driving distance of a regional, but I believe their are enough sponsorship and fundraising opportunities as long as the team is dedicated enough.

[pathew100]

Originally Posted by Frenchie461

If FIRST could get FRC affordable so teams could do more with less. Get rid of the official FIRST lighting and sound people. For example, at the BMR, college students would have done just as good of a job on lighting and sound for a whole lot less. With several changes like that, a regional could be down to 1500 or so per team, making it a lot more accessible to schools that are only able to afford FTC.

This is basically what the Michigan district system does. We built our own field hardware and volunteers transport it to each event (we still rent/borrow all the electronics from FIRST). We get field tech support from FIRST as well but have our own trained FTAs.

There is no production company. There is no extra lighting other than whatever is in the venue. The sound/DJ/ A/V is sometimes the school's and/or rented or other volunteered gear.

You do lose some production value, the venues are smaller but since there are ~40 teams per district it isn't an issue. The experience for the teams is almost the same and definitely outweighs the cost (2 districts for the price of one regional).

So it does take a lot of extra volunteer overhead and leadership (The FIRST in Michigan board members) to pull it off. Might be hard to do if you start spreading the areas to encompass 4-5 states.