Bills Blog- Yes, I’m already counting down to kickoff 2012

[pfreivald]

I had family drive in to visit at CMP, and they were every bit as impressed with the fields in the pit as they were the fields in the dome. I think I'm going to have a hard time convincing my brother to line up the proper support before registering for an FRC team...

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

... I think I'm going to have a hard time convincing my brother to line up the proper support before registering for an FRC team...

If your brother is so enthused about FIRST that he's ready to register an FRC team without "lining up the proper support", well ...

that is the proper support.

[FRC4ME]

Originally Posted by JesseK

As a sort of counter point to my own argument, 2 years ago in Florida when we briefly met with Paul Godonis, he said he didn't want school board support behind FIRST. Actually in hind sight, IMO that part is for the best -- for reasons best said elsewhere. Yet because of those reasons I've come to realize one major thing: while FIRST doesn't deserve the "sunshine and kittens" deification that sometimes happens on CD, they DO have a plan that isn't totally diabolical and was created by some pretty competent people.

I'm a little concerned that the best you can say about FIRST is that they "aren't totally diabolical." I honestly believe FIRST's goals are pure and not corrupt. Are you implying that this isn't the case?

Whether on purpose or by accident, FIRST has created something pretty amazing. I've always thought that what makes it so amazing is that the politics don't matter all that much. It's not so much what FIRST does, but what FIRST allows others to do. Inspiration and Recognition; that's what FIRST is about, right?

[alexhenning]

Originally Posted by Frenchie461

Has anyone considered the possibility of simply getting rid of FTC. If FIRST could get FRC affordable so teams could do more with less. Get rid of the official FIRST lighting and sound people. For example, at the BMR, college students would have done just as good of a job on lighting and sound for a whole lot less. With several changes like that, a regional could be down to 1500 or so per team, making it a lot more accessible to schools that are only able to afford FTC. If a FRC team was only twice an FTC team (I'm assuming FTC is like Vex where schools have multiple teams), schools would choose FRC.

tl;dr make first cheap, get rid of FTC

FRC is the flagship of FIRST, and as much as FIRST wants to help FTC, I don't think it should be put ahead of FRC. If anything, FIRST should help the FTC teams become FRC teams. The FTC teams for the most part have exceptional students who are motivated. They have wonderful mentor. However, they lack funding.

FIRST should help the FTC teams become aware of sponsorship opportunities. For instance:
This year, JCPenny gave ~$6,500 to rookies.
There's also the NASA grants for about ~$5,000.
PTC should be offering sponsorships next year.
Tons of local businesses.
Assuming FTC teams already have $2,000 a year in funding, they "just" need one of those grants and another $1,500. The money could be obtained by fundraising, a big sponsor, several small local sponsors. That's assuming you live within driving distance of a regional, but I believe their are enough sponsorship and fundraising opportunities as long as the team is dedicated enough.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by Richard

If your brother is so enthused about FIRST that he's ready to register an FRC team without "lining up the proper support", well ...

that is the proper support.

Oh, trust me, I know. That's how both FIRST teams I've founded got started.

That said, there is a difference between founding a FIRST team and founding a FIRST team with the foundation to last, and I'd hate to see him make the same mistakes I made with 827...

[EricH]

Originally Posted by FRC4ME

I'm a little concerned that the best you can say about FIRST is that they "aren't totally diabolical." I honestly believe FIRST's goals are pure and not corrupt. Are you implying that this isn't the case?

Whether on purpose or by accident, FIRST has created something pretty amazing. I've always thought that what makes it so amazing is that the politics don't matter all that much. It's not so much what FIRST does, but what FIRST allows others to do. Inspiration and Recognition; that's what FIRST is about, right?

The goals have not changed.

The people have, and that has brought some undercurrents into the situation. Some tensions, if you will, or politics. The strongest company can be severely damaged by allowing those tensions and distrusts to continue without resolution.

I've been in and around FRC for over a decade now, first as a spectator, then a student (and occasional volunteer), then as a volunteer, now as a spectator again. This year, I think I've seen more tension buildup between CD and the perceived goals, etc, of HQ than any other year. Yeah, the move did compound it. Yeah, there's been some tension year after year, especially in 2008/2009 (IFI-NI transition in FRC; VEX-Tetrix in FTC). This year, it seems worse than normal. Hopefully, having team veterans and active team mentors from the role-model teams on the GDC will help bring the teams' views to the GDC and HQ and ease some of the tensions.

[pathew100]

Originally Posted by Frenchie461

If FIRST could get FRC affordable so teams could do more with less. Get rid of the official FIRST lighting and sound people. For example, at the BMR, college students would have done just as good of a job on lighting and sound for a whole lot less. With several changes like that, a regional could be down to 1500 or so per team, making it a lot more accessible to schools that are only able to afford FTC.

This is basically what the Michigan district system does. We built our own field hardware and volunteers transport it to each event (we still rent/borrow all the electronics from FIRST). We get field tech support from FIRST as well but have our own trained FTAs.

There is no production company. There is no extra lighting other than whatever is in the venue. The sound/DJ/ A/V is sometimes the school's and/or rented or other volunteered gear.

You do lose some production value, the venues are smaller but since there are ~40 teams per district it isn't an issue. The experience for the teams is almost the same and definitely outweighs the cost (2 districts for the price of one regional).

So it does take a lot of extra volunteer overhead and leadership (The FIRST in Michigan board members) to pull it off. Might be hard to do if you start spreading the areas to encompass 4-5 states.

[dez250]

Originally Posted by ouellet348

...Keep FRC on center stage where we belong, let FTC have their smaller stage as they are mini-FRC. Let FRC stay where it had for the past 19 years up until this one.

As someone who loves FIRST I understand wanting to show off FTC and make them feel special and integrated, but it can be done in safer better ways.

First I want to address your last comment, how is FTC in the dome not safe?
I think keeping FTC there side by side with FRC is a great thing. It allows FTC teams watch FRC teams compete while they are waiting in que or observing other matches while at their own world championship too. It gives them inspiration to see what else they can choose to achieve.

As for your first comment above, see my comments below, you may be surprised to see the fields were not separated from the pits until the move in 2003.
When I was in high school, the only "Main Event Field" that wasn't "in" the pits was the "TV Field". Back before 2003, before the event moved to the Astrodome in Houston, and consequently to Atlanta and now St. Louis, Championship fields were adjacent to the pits. I would say they were in the pits but some may argue they weren't. In EPCOT's parking lot, tents were erected to house the divisional fields and pits. These tents were adjacent to one another and the only thing separating the pits from the fields was a plastic drape wall. The main stage where opening, closing, and awards ceremonies were held was a couple football fields away from the "robot village" and surrounded by metal bleachers in the nice bright Florida sun. Before Florida [Pre 95], the competition was held as a single event per year in high school gyms. So to make a note on your comment, I would say this year FIRST did make a move towards what it had been in years previous for the Championship and I am excited to see some fields stay in the pits for years to come.

Also attached is the pit map from 2002, the red wording on the right, of the divisional names is where the fields were located. Notice Einstein was a division and Galileo had yet to exist.

[FRC4ME]

Originally Posted by EricH

The people have, and that has brought some undercurrents into the situation. Some tensions, if you will, or politics. The strongest company can be severely damaged by allowing those tensions and distrusts to continue without resolution.

I think it is of utmost importance that we (not HQ; us, the students, the mentors, the volunteers, the community) don't let that happen.

Maybe CDers just need to attend more regionals. It's almost impossible to think about politics there.

[Brian C]

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz

I am curious as to why everyone thinks the fields in the pit area were so bad?

I'll preface this by saying that I was not in St Louis to see this personally. I did however get some good feedback from people whose opinions I trust. That being said:

The situation reminds me ALOT of what FIRST used to do in EPCOT Center in Disneyworld. There were fields set up in tents adjacent to the pit tent that the divisions woudl compete on. All teams got a chance to rotate onto the "main" field (Einstein) for one of their qualifying matches so they could experience being in front of the main grandstands.

It really wasn't that big a deal. Heck, we even had to move the robot *gasp* outside on our way to the Einstein field.

[Marc P.]

Here are a few photos from the Championship in 2002 that will hopefully provide some perspective to the people here who have only known Atlanta Championships.

The first photo is Einstein- note how it's outdoors, where everyone (literally) baked in the Florida sun during opening/closing ceremonies. Also note the canopy/tunnel on the left- that was the robot path to bring your robot to/from Einstein. And as someone above posted, back then you didn't have one field to call home. You'd rotate through the fields each match, and hope the rest of your team knew which field you were on next.

The second photo is the Pit/Field tent. Yeah, that's it. All the pits were in that tent, and the fields were in a similar tent adjacent to it. This is the end of the pit closest to where Einstein was, where colleges and universities had tables set up with information for prospective students. The smaller tent on the left was the "Internet Lounge", where multiple phone lines were provided for laptops to dial up to the internet.

Third photo is the stands for Einstein. Not much else to say other than reiterating the "baking in the Florida sun" part.

The last photo is Archimedes. On the other side of the plastic wall behind the field is the pits. Behind me were bleachers. Yep, only one set of bleachers, on one side of the field, and they were much smaller than what was in St. Louis.

In 2002 there were FRC 291 teams at the championship (count the number of pits from the map Dez posted above). This year in St. Louis there were 351 FRC teams. That's roughly 21% more teams attending the Championship than in 2002. From the pictures of the pit fields I've seen this year, the bleachers provided way more than 21% more seating space than the tent fields in Epcot. From what I've been reading here, it seems there still wasn't enough space for everyone. But as little space as there was, consider that it was still an improvement over the olden days of yore. As a student back then, no one on my team ever complained about lack of seating. We were having too good of a time to notice.

[OZ_341]

Originally Posted by Marc P.

Here are a few photos from the Championship in 2002 ........

These photos are making me miss Disney! I would sit 3 people per seat, just to be back at EPCOT. You are right, we were having too much fun to notice any problems.

[PayneTrain]

^^Chief Delphi members are more critical than your average FIRSTer. We're the die-hards of the fanbase, but we aren't fanboys. We hope for constant improvement.

I think it would be cool to go back to Disney if they had a supporting venue for FRC (Though I feel the sports complex there would be very accommodating to teams, but probably rather expensive)

I like the idea of fields in the pits, but I think it needed more seating. There wouldn't be any complaints if there was enough seating.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by dez250

First I want to address your last comment, how is FTC in the dome not safe?
I think keeping FTC there side by side with FRC is a great thing.

He is referring to the pit safety of the FRC pit fields!

Not going to lie, but I did NOT feel safe in the pit fields especially during the eliminations. Teams were sprawled out on the edges working on items with people sitting 5 feet away without safety glasses, it was very crowded, the stands were jam packed including the aisles, and I was hit several times with carts and twice with robot arms to the back of my head (once on Friday and once on Sat.

Oh well, that is just me.

[Brian C]

Originally Posted by Marc P.

The second photo is the Pit/Field tent. Yeah, that's it. All the pits were in that tent, and the fields were in a similar tent adjacent to it.

Nice pics Marc! Brings back some nice memories.

To give a feel for the size of the pit tent for those that weren't there the word back then was that they could fit 3 747 airplanes end-to end in the pit tent alone. With the plastic floor and all of the electric, lighting, A/C and other hookups and support the logistics were incredible.

Yes Disney was certainly good and had it's advantages. Atlanta was good and had it's advantages as well.

I think that over time folks will realize that St. Louis has it's advantages too.