Qualifying for CMP in the future

[dodar]

State borders, like Eric said, would most likely only work for Michigan. Conferences would most likely be: New England(ME, VT, NH, Mass, CT, PA, NY, RI, NJ,), Southeast(Florida, Georgia, SC, AL, MS,), East(NC, Virginia, WV, TN, KY, DE, MD, DC) Midwest(OH, IN, IL, MO), Frozen North(MN, WI, IA, ND/SD, NE)Southwest(NM, Mexico, Texas, Kansas, OK, CO, AR, LA) Pacific Northwest(WA, OR, ID, MT, WY, AK), West(CA, NV, HI, Utah, AZ), Canadian Conference(need input from Canadian CD members to help out)

[Lil' Lavery]

Ultimately, I think the solution(s) to our current problems have been touched upon in this thread. Enlarging the amount of FRC teams that are able to attend the Championship event (and that is not the same as making the event itself bigger) and restructuring the regional format as a whole.

But that's not going to stop me from talking.

Originally Posted by Libby K

I don't have any suggestions for HOW to make it better because a lot of ideas have been covered already. I can only imagine how difficult these decisions must be for FIRST. However, I just want to echo this sentiment.



Especially the awards. The Chairman's Award is the reason we're here. If you take away the award about changing the culture, you lose what makes FIRST unique. FIRST wasn't started because we needed to whack a bunch of robots around. FIRST was created because America (at the time, we were USFIRST) was falling behind in STEM education and it needed a way to celebrate engineers as the rockstars of our generation.



This stuff seems to be beaten into us at every turn by FIRST and its media, but from this thread, it looks like nobody's listening.

If you remove qualification for the teams that are doing what we're really here for? You've lost the point. Those teams that are getting it right need to be celebrated on a Championship stage just as much as the ones who produce a winning robot.

Not that I really disagree here, but I'm going to play devil's advocate.

You're right, it's not just about the robots. The Chairman's, EI, and RAS teams need to be celebrated. But why are we celebrating them on the field if their accomplishments didn't happen on the field?

To demonstrate this point, I'm going to turn to a bit of hyperbole.
What if, instead of looking at Championship qualification, we looked at Einstein qualification? What if you had to win an RCA to be able to compete there? Why aren't we celebrating them on the biggest stage that Championship has to offer?

Because, at a certain point, the competition is about the robots. When we talk about the "rockstar" teams in FRC, it's generally teams that field great robots. We have a website dedicated to ranking the top 25 competition teams in FRC. An anymous poster who writes a column about teams' chances of winning events. Multi-hour podcasts and video blogs about how teams are performing and whether or not they're going to win. The engineering rock stars of FRC usually come from these celebrated teams.

The best part, to me, is that these rock star teams also generally get it off the field as well. There's little surprise to me that our current championship alliance consisted of two hall of fame teams. Only very rarely are the teams that we're celebrating for winning an event teams that "don't get it."

Not saying that we shouldn't include RCA, EI, and RAS winners as qualifiers for Championship. Just exploring the other side of the coin for a little while.

Originally Posted by dodar

State borders, like Eric said, would most likely only work for Michigan. Conferences would most likely be: New England(ME, VT, NH, Mass, CT, PA, NY, RI, NJ,), Southeast(Florida, Georgia, SC, AL, MS,), East(NC, Virginia, WV, TN, KY, DE, MD, DC) Midwest(OH, IN, IL, MO), Frozen North(MN, WI, IA, ND/SD, NE)Southwest(NM, Mexico, Texas, Kansas, OK, CO, AR, LA) Pacific Northwest(WA, OR, ID, MT, WY, AK), West(CA, NV, HI, Utah, AZ), Canadian Conference(need input from Canadian CD members to help out)

See, this is where ideas like this fall apart.

Why is Delaware in a different "conference" than Pennsylvania? There are only two teams in Delaware, and they both attended the Philadelphia regional. Heck, one of those teams has won Philly four years in a row.

What happens to Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania in this system? Only 17 of the 39 teams that attended the Pittsburgh regional this year would be allowed to attend whatever event takes it places. More than half of the teams for that event came from places that aren't part of the "New England" conference.

I could continue listing cases like this for hours. Dividing up the map into chunks like this simply isn't going to work until there's a much higher team density.

[dodar]

I was just dividing up the states as states, not as teams in those states. I have no clue where the diversity of teams amongst the individual states are at. I do like the idea of multi-state MSC conferences to qualify for CMP but finding the way to divide the teams up is the hard part.

[PayneTrain]

If a three-tier system were to hit the contiguous states and Canada, you would register for FRC through a regional cooperative of your choosing. (For instance, I would join the hyothetical FIRST Capital Reigon Co-op, consisting of VA, MD, DC, and NEARBY TEAMS) So, you do not have to be locked into any specific co-op, but whichever one you choose to go into, you work to qualify for that regional championship.

If this system is mandated across all of the contiguous states and Canada, teams are allowed to attend any district event, but they will take their top two district scores to qualify for the regional championship held by the co-op they registered with.

This method eliminates teams from being locked out by any border constructed by FIRST. The teams make their own choice for where they want to qualify.

While making 15 state and super regional championships, and two traditional regionals, FRC is cutting down on the bids that are spoken for in both RCA/EI/RAS and general champion bids.

This has been mentioned in a few different iterations, but I want to mesh the idea above with another: the "Kamen" division. The Kamen division is where all 50 or so teams with RCA/EI/RAS bids will be grouped into. They will have their own pits, and play in the dome on a third field, for the whole competition. Every match they play will feature an RCA, EI, and RAS team in an alliance on both sides. At the end, the top four alliances move into the 8 slot of another division. Another option would be to have Kamen compete like the other four divisions, then make Einstein a "Round Robin" where each team plays the other twice, and the two best records go to a best-of-three finals.

There are ways they can make this work for everyone.

[rsisk]

I am not a big fan of separating the RCA/EI/RAS from the teams that make it to CMP based on performance.

These awards represent a key aspect of FIRST that differentiates the program from being just a robot competition. These teams need to be as much a part of the competition as any other team and the spirit of these teams needs to be an integrated part of the whole. If you start to separate them, you will start to lose an important foundational component of FIRST.

[Libby K]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Because, at a certain point, the competition is about the robots. When we talk about the "rockstar" teams in FRC, it's generally teams that field great robots. We have a website dedicated to ranking the top 25 competition teams in FRC. An anymous poster who writes a column about teams' chances of winning events. Multi-hour podcasts and video blogs about how teams are performing and whether or not they're going to win. The engineering rock stars of FRC usually come from these celebrated teams.

The best part, to me, is that these rock star teams also generally get it off the field as well. There's little surprise to me that our current championship alliance consisted of two hall of fame teams. Only very rarely are the teams that we're celebrating for winning an event teams that "don't get it."

Not saying that we shouldn't include RCA, EI, and RAS winners as qualifiers for Championship. Just exploring the other side of the coin for a little while.

I definitely agree with you - I didn't mean to say in any way that the competition wasn't about the robots as well...You're 100% right, I love seeing that teams that 'get it' are also the ones producing great robots. I simply wouldn't want to see people overlook the value of the RCA/EI/RAS awards as a reason to be at the Championship event.

[Bill_B]

Originally Posted by Madison

Give FTC and FLL their own events.

Problem solved.

Several searches of this thread have failed to tell me if anyone has noted that the FLL World Festival is not a championship. There are apparently too many regionals to allow all those winners to compete at CMP. This does not reduce the excitement and enthusiasm of the invited teams as they reach the "big" stage.

I cannot predict how this information will or will not affect the topic of discussion here. I could give you some ideas about how it feels for those kids to be able to show their work in such a large venue. If it were up to me, I'd say that any FRC Team would have to have supported at least one FLL or FTC team as part of their qualification for CMP.

Separate event for FLL? Thumbs waaaaaaay down for that.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Bill_B

Several searches of this thread have failed to tell me if anyone has noted that the FLL World Festival is not a championship. There are apparently too many regionals to allow all those winners to compete at CMP. This does not reduce the excitement and enthusiasm of the invited teams as they reach the "big" stage.

I cannot predict how this information will or will not affect the topic of discussion here. I could give you some ideas about how it feels for those kids to be able to show their work in such a large venue. If it were up to me, I'd say that any FRC Team would have to have supported at least one FLL or FTC team as part of their qualification for CMP.

Separate event for FLL? Thumbs waaaaaaay down for that.

If teams had to support an FLL or FTC team to go to CMP, how would you tell the kids on an FRC team that built that robot over the 6 weeks and poured thousands of hours into the team and made it to the semis at maybe 2 regionals that they cant get into the CMP because they dont have enough team resources to try to support an entirely different entity for their competition year? That would hurtful to those FLL/FTC kids who wouldnt get the full effect of FIRST because their FRC mentors are striving for their results for their team as it was.

[Tknee]

Originally Posted by Basel A

Going back to the 2v2 would be even more terrible. Each team would only get 2/3 of the matches they get now!

How about going back to a hexagonal field and playing 2v2v2? I don't know if the logistics work out for regionals (54 teams would get into elims), but you would get the same amount of matches and one less robot qualifying from each regional.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by Tknee

How about going back to a hexagonal field and playing 2v2v2? I don't know if the logistics work out for regionals (54 teams would get into elims), but you would get the same amount of matches and one less robot qualifying from each regional.

You would likely also have two alliances conspiring against the third.

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by Cory

You would likely also have two alliances conspiring against the third.

I believe this was the original reason for leaving the 1v1v1 system. Also, triangular (or hexagonal) fields don't fit as well as rectangles..

I would like to note that an FRC team in every high school doesn't mean an FRC team for every high school. One team can potentially reach a few schools, especially in urban, even suburban, areas. We may only need 10,000 FRC teams to reach every high school.

As for expanding the district model, Israel seems like a very good place to try it, once they reach 100-ish teams. Not many foreigners are coming in anyway, and every team could reach every event. At 60 teams, they currently only need about 3 district events, but the National Championship wouldn't be much more competitive outside of more events per team. Still, as Israel grows, that may be another possible district system success.

[Tetraman]

Does anyone have an image or graphic that depicts the number of teams in each state? I know there is one somewhere but I can't find it.

I'm working on taking everyone's ideas and making a structured proposal.

[1986titans]

Originally Posted by Tetraman

Does anyone have an image or graphic that depicts the number of teams in each state? I know there is one somewhere but I can't find it.

I'm working on taking everyone's ideas and making a structured proposal.

Even something like a number from each state wouldn't be good enough for breaking down how teams should be distributed. It's more important to know where they are in each state. An example of this would be Kansas - 17 of the 21 teams in the state are within an hour's (for a lot far less) drive of the KC Regional in Missouri that is only a block away from Kansas. Assigning these teams to anywhere else would require hundreds of miles of unnecessary travel. I would use a Google map that had all of the team locations as pinpoints or something so a distribution could be seen more easily.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Bill_B

Several searches of this thread have failed to tell me if anyone has noted that the FLL World Festival is not a championship. There are apparently too many regionals to allow all those winners to compete at CMP. This does not reduce the excitement and enthusiasm of the invited teams as they reach the "big" stage.

I cannot predict how this information will or will not affect the topic of discussion here. I could give you some ideas about how it feels for those kids to be able to show their work in such a large venue. If it were up to me, I'd say that any FRC Team would have to have supported at least one FLL or FTC team as part of their qualification for CMP.

Separate event for FLL? Thumbs waaaaaaay down for that.

I competed in the FLL World Festival in 2003 in Houston (when it was in the pits) and in 2005 when it was on Einstein in Atlanta. I had more fun competing in 2003 when it wasn't in the dome. It was kind of cool to see the FRC robots on the fields nearby, but it just seemed like way too much effort, and it definitely cut down on the interactions between the teams (and there is a far more diverse field their than there is for FRC). It was also *impossible* to watch from the stands. Every FRC team should definitely make an effort to get FLL teams into their pits though, I got a tour of MOE's robot that year and I still remember it. My Dad also spent lots of time talking to FRC mentors, as he was interested in starting an FRC team.

They should definitely be in the same place, but I had a better experience when I *wasn't* competing on the dome floor, and I'm not just saying this because I'm an FRC or bust guy. FLL has a much larger impact than FRC does, and it will probably remain this way for quite some time.

[Tetraman]

Disclaimer: This is mainly to be used as a theoretical possibility to be discussed. It's not the answer nor do I claim it to be. It's a well thought out concept model that incorporates what has been discussed so far. Constructive comments please. Also PLEASE don't just quote this entire post, cause it is long.


We know that the best way to reconstruct the World Championship is to reformat the Regional Competitions. One way that has been discussed is a Regional Championship, and here is my take on how to implement it.


FRC Open Events
The traditional Regional Competitions will maintain the same process that they always have in past years, but are titled differently. Rather than being a Regional, they are FRC Open Events. So The Midwest Regional would be the "Midwest Open", and the Finger Lakes Regional would be the "Finger Lakes Open". The Events are open to all possible teams as the Open Event can take in, allowing for teams that enjoy traveling to other regionals as they do today to take part in events across the country or over the world. FRC Open Events take place within the first five (5) weeks of the FIRST competition season at the end of the build period. Regional events take on any number of FIRST teams as they can handle (anywhere from 40-60), and give out the same awards. However, the awards will not be worth the same as they have in the past.

How do you get into an FRC Open Event?
1 - You must pay the fee required to participate
2 - You must sign up early, before the Open Event is filled.
3 - Everything that is asked of you for any regional today.


FRC Regional Competitions
Each FRC robotics team is slotted to a Region based on their location. Location can be state based or by specific distances. Each Regional Competition will hold anywhere from 100-120 teams randomly split into two divisions. The divisions will play their own Qualifying and Elimination rounds with the winners of each division competing to be Regional Championship Winners. Similarly to Open Events and Regionals of the past, trophies are handed out - however trophies are not division specific; You will be competition for each trophy over the entire competition field, not just within each division. Based on records and trophies and such, teams will earn invitations to the World Championship. The Regional Competitions are played after the 5 weeks of Open Events and a week off.

[/i]How do you get into an FRC Regional Competition?[/i]
1 - You must be from the specific Region the Regional Competition is for.
2 - You must have won any Open Chairman's Award, Open Engineering Inspiration Award, Open Rookie All Star Award, and/or are Champions of a FRC Open Event - each from the current year.
3 - You must have won last year's Regional Competition Chairman's Award, Engineering Inspiration Award, Rookie All Star Award and/or Regional champions - each from the last year only.
4 - If you haven't either of those awards, similar to what is done for the Championship these days, teams will have specific years which they may apply for their region's Regional Competition. This will allow for teams to attend the Regional Competitions without stellar performances throughout the year. And since Regional Competitions have fewer robotics teams to worry about, teams will be able to apply every other year, rather than every three or four years.
5 - Pay the fee required and everything that is asked of you for any other regional today.


FRC World Championship
Played how it is now, the World Championship doesn't change much. However with this proposal there will be much fewer teams in the World Championship. The World Championship is only available for those who won awards or reached certain achievements in any events in the current year. It is played after the Regional Competitions with a week break in between.

So how do you get to the FRC World Championship?
1 - Be one of the original FIRST robotics teams.
2 - Be a Hall of Fame robotics team.
3 - From an Open Event - win the Open Chairman's Award, the Open Engineering Inspiration Award or the Open Rookie All Star Award.
4 - From an FRC Regional Competition - win the Regional Chairman's Award, the Regional Engineering Inspiration Award or the Regional Rookie All Star Award.
5 - Additionally from an FRC Regional Competition - the original top 8 seeded teams from each regional division earn an invitation. In the event of actual ties, the tied teams are also allowed in. Also, the winners of each regional division earn an invitation as well. (In this way, a possible 22 unique teams earn an invitation based on their performance, 25 teams from each Regional Competition when you include the award winners.)
6 - Be last year's World Championship Engineering Inspiration Award winners, Rookie All Star Award winners and World Champions.
7 - Pay the fee required and everything that is asked of you for any Championship today.

Notes on the FRC World Championship in this proposal
If there were 50 FRC Open Events, (two more regionals than there were last year) and lets say 6 Regional Competitions, that means a total of 333 maximum unique teams will compete in the World Championship. (if my math is right). That is fewer than the number of teams that played this year, but still quite the large pool of robotics teams. Plus, the teams that will be attending the World Championship will always be the best of the best - the top contenders in Regional Competition play, as well as all the great award winners from the current years smaller events.

This may be the most controversial paragraph. I'd suggest that while Open Event winners of Chairman's, EI and RAS are accepted to Worlds, it is only the winners of the Regional Chairman's, EI and RAS awards that compete for the World Championship version of the award.

Yes. It is unfair that the World Championship is so restrictive and teams must be actually good at what they do in order to get any entry. But isn't that what it's for anyway? Think about most High School Sports. You don't make it to Nationals just by winning in your Regional. You have to compete Regionally before you can make it to States, and you can't make it to the Nationals until you make it past States. It's very "win or go home", and the larger FIRST gets, the more of this reality we have to recognize. Pretty soon, we won't be given a golden ticket to the World Championship. We all will have to earn the right to go. Plus who knows, as FIRST grows maybe there can be a smaller event for average teams to play in as well during the World Championship. While some teams play in the 4-division "NCAA" tournament, somewhere else in the area there can be another 2-division "NIT" tournament.



So there you go. Rage and Discuss.