Building just isn't a priority anymore

[CMAT17]

Perhaps what you could do to actually involve the team members into doing something useful would be to harness their energy for community outreach to compete for the Chairman's submission. Our team doesn't have a lot of people that actually work on the actual robot, but most of the people are in PR, and it worked great.

[Molten]

Some people here find spirit as important as the robot. I understand where they are coming from. But lets try to remember something here. The cheering should be produced as a response to the robot. The robot should not be produced to create something to cheer for. Though the results look similar, I see a very important difference. I hope you find a way to get the focus back to the robot where it belongs.

[Robby Unruh]

My team is completely opposite. We don't exactly have that many members, but none of them want to work on our spirit stuff. We had to have our mentors work on it, because everyone wanted to have a slice of the robot, which got realllly out of hand towards the end of the build season. We had to keep some other kids busy by doing mindless errands (like going to go pick up more reflective tape from ace hardware/etc). You should probably stress more of the competition side of FIRST.

Let's just admit it, it's not all about gracious professionalism.

[Kims Robot]

A couple of ideas for you...

1. Tailor & Refocus your recruiting efforts.
If the kids that are joining just aren't interested in the robot and no matter what you do, they won't take an interest, then maybe your team could work a little harder on finding the kids who ARE interested in building a robot. Its often difficult to make robotics look "cool"... though it sounds like your team may have gone overboard on that... the team is "cool", but the robot part just isnt interesting. Many teams have students that never touch the robot, and IMO thats ok. We've had several kids leave our team to major in graphic design or business or things like that, all of which are important to technology companies, but yes, not the focus of a Robotics Competition. So its good to have SOME students like that, but as you say, it sounds like you are overloaded with them. In my mind a 75%/25% balance would be good. There are several things you can try
A. Talk to Tech teachers (computer classes, technology classes, math classes, science classes). See if they can recommend/encourage anyone to join.
B. Develop a Student Application. We generally accept everyone that applies, but it gives us the chance to weed out if necessary, and also makes sure that the applicants are serious enough to fill out a couple pages of questions.
C. Develop a Team Handbook. We have all of our students and parents sign to say that they have read the team handbook and know what is expected of them. This sometimes gets kids to consider what they are getting into.

2. Work on your Preseason Activities
The whole goal of FIRST is to expose kids to science and technology. They may decide once they are exposed that its not for them, and thats ok, but we've had several students become interested in different aspects that they never before would have considered.
A. Do some fun/teambuilding type activities that incorporate some science/tech knowledge. Balloon Rockets, Paper Bridges, Newspaper Towers, Bottle Rockets, Egg Drop, etc... are all fun & teambuilding, but if you provide good resources, the team can learn about structures and gasses and all sorts of science/tech type stuff at the same time.
B. Do a Mock Build Season... whether you use Legos or Vex or FTC parts, get small groups (6 or less) to build robots that compete in some sort of competition. With super small groups, everyone is forced to pitch in in some way.
C. Have subteams that meet outside of your normal team meeting, and require that every kid that travels attends at least half of a technical subteam's meetings. This ensures that they at least TRY something in preseason.
D. Do a Subteam Rotation Night. We do this every year, all 10 of our subteams each have a table/location and the mentors put together short (5-10 minute) presentations/activities that show what that preseason subteam does (hint, the more hands on/visual the better!). The students rotate through every table in groups getting a "taste" of what each subteam does and get to figure out what subteams they want to join for the preseason.

3. Force Your Build Season Subteams
We do an application each year for Build Season Subteams and the mentors sit down and sort the kids out into groups. Each group must have 1 new student, 1 returning student and 1 student familiar with CAD. We attempt to balance the rest of the group with what the kids want to do (1st or 2nd choice subeams). And try and make the groups reasonably balanced in size. This may be a bit tougher in your situation, as you don't want a bunch of dead wood... but with some good mentors/build kids, you might suck in a few kids that might not of helped before. A good example is that we have had kids join the controls subteam because they want to "decorate" the controls box. Then our mentors rope them into helping with wiring or designing the box, and then they get a little more hooked.

Overall I can definitely understand your frustration. There are always students that you sort of "wonder" why they joined a robotics team in the first place. Though it does sound like you recognize that its good to have fun, but with such a large team, you could do with having a stronger core of people working on the robot. Though Realistically I think even a lot of the bigger teams will tell you they probably have a solid core of 10 kids, and then however many others that "help out" but aren't as dedicated. Really its all about balance.

Give some of these ideas a shot and see if they help amp up the interest in working on the robot, or helping the team in more technical ways.

Good luck!

[rocker2475]

Originally Posted by Robby Unruh

My team is completely opposite. We don't exactly have that many members, but none of them want to work on our spirit stuff. We had to have our mentors work on it, because everyone wanted to have a slice of the robot, which got realllly out of hand towards the end of the build season. We had to keep some other kids busy by doing mindless errands (like going to go pick up more reflective tape from ace hardware/etc). You should probably stress more of the competition side of FIRST.

Let's just admit it, it's not all about gracious professionalism.

Our club used to be like that, (I'm from the same team as OP) but the real problem is that all these kids focus on at competitions is yelling and screaming trying to get the spirit award. When people Should be scouting they put a bunch of fake numbers down and keep screaming. Then when we lose matches because of failed scouting they all keep smiling and cheering. It causes the rest of the team members who put hard work into a robot they want to see do well feel like they don't matter. There needs to be a balance that isn't there and we need to fix it.

What I would suggest doing-at the competition and during the build season-is setting up some clear, understandable rules to everyone. Say, if you're not doing x, or if you do y instead of z, then you're off the team. You have 50 people on your team, I'm sure that getting rid of some people won't hurt. As for the competitions, I suggest having a responsible student or so to control the people there. Tell them and the people in the stands that if the person finds you're not doing something, you're sent out of the stands. I know some teams that don't allow students to even come to the competition if they don't do what they're supposed to do.

All in all, you need to take control over your team, via the lead mentor on your team. Set down some sturdy rules, and most importantly, enforce them.

[Imperium283]

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256

What I would suggest doing-at the competition and during the build season-is setting up some clear, understandable rules to everyone. Say, if you're not doing x, or if you do y instead of z, then you're off the team. You have 50 people on your team, I'm sure that getting rid of some people won't hurt. As for the competitions, I suggest having a responsible student or so to control the people there. Tell them and the people in the stands that if the person finds you're not doing something, you're sent out of the stands. I know some teams that don't allow students to even come to the competition if they don't do what they're supposed to do.

All in all, you need to take control over your team, via the lead mentor on your team. Set down some sturdy rules, and most importantly, enforce them.

We completely agree with you on this. But heres the problem: They're all friends. They think we're all jerks because we don't care about being obnoxious in the stands. They go on bike rides, they have parties, they go laser tagging, they have their own drama circles, they do everything but focus on what the main part of FIRST is about (Science and Technology)

What they think when chains snap or the gears wear out, they think "Oh, the builders will just fix it they know what to do" and rely on that. Newsflash! There's going to be max 4 people building next year's robot. (If we're lucky). Sooner or later theres going to be no one to rely on, and none of them realize this and don't try to learn or go to the seminars. Half of them didn't, and still don't know what "Autonomous" means after we won a regional this year, and made the quarter finals in the other two.

I honestly have no hope for next season.

[Mk.32]

Our team is also like that, next year we will only have about 4 core members left after the seniors are gone. And past season we only really had about 6-8 people work on the robot itself. And the rest (10+ people) didn't even bother to show up to meetings.

This coming season recruiting will be the key for us; being able to find people that are interesting into STEM and getting them into building/programming etc would be a big help. Try prompting at your school, look in the comp sci/woodshop/engineering classes for motivated students. And lay down a set of rules for everyone to abide to in terms of commitment.

In addition give people fun jobs to do in terms of building, we were able to gain a few members by letting them mill out parts(with instruction) on our milling machine and getting the "oh this is cool" response then they have been coming back.

[Chexposito]

Originally Posted by Imperium283

We have a larger team, which in my opinion could be good or bad....

Get an hour system in place, take only the top participants. The people who pour their heart and soul into the team/robot will usually show up on top (or they'll forget to clock in/out because they're there so much). Put it this way, myself and the other people in the top 5 had over 500 hours at the end of the season. DON'T TAKE EVERYONE TO REGIONALS! If they didn't do any work then they don't deserve the trip especially if they are not paying for the trip. You'll find the cost to the team go down if you cut the people you haul along. Those people are usually the ones who cause the problems you are having at the regional. just my 2 cents

Originally Posted by Imperium283

We completely agree with you on this. But heres the problem: They're all friends. They think we're all jerks because we don't care about being obnoxious in the stands. They go on bike rides, they have parties, they go laser tagging, they have their own drama circles, they do everything but focus on what the main part of FIRST is about (Science and Technology)

What they think when chains snap or the gears wear out, they think "Oh, the builders will just fix it they know what to do" and rely on that. Newsflash! There's going to be max 4 people building next year's robot. (If we're lucky). Sooner or later theres going to be no one to rely on, and none of them realize this and don't try to learn or go to the seminars. Half of them didn't, and still don't know what "Autonomous" means after we won a regional this year, and made the quarter finals in the other two.

I honestly have no hope for next season.

I understand being friends, and we have a similar issue on our team. What I meant to say was to have control over them, but still let them do the screaming and the shouting. Let them do that if they still do their work (correctly). My 8th grade english teacher told our class that we could talk amongst friends and listen to our iPods while working in class as long as our work got done. In the end, it all worked out fine, except for a few students who were disturbing the class.

Originally Posted by Chexposito

Get an hour system in place, take only the top participants. The people who pour their heart and soul into the team/robot will usually show up on top (or they'll forget to clock in/out because they're there so much). Put it this way, myself and the other people in the top 5 had over 500 hours at the end of the season. DON'T TAKE EVERYONE TO REGIONALS! If they didn't do any work then they don't deserve the trip especially if they are not paying for the trip. You'll find the cost to the team go down if you cut the people you haul along. Those people are usually the ones who cause the problems you are having at the regional. just my 2 cents

I agree with this, but our team has an issue with this. You see, around 50% of our team is autistic, which for the most part is a very good thing, as they are bright and help a lot, but the problem is, with their autism comes some difficulties. One of them is that they don't/can't work on something very long or don't ever show up to practice, and the second one is a few of them don't like the idea of "Gracious Professionalism", and try to drive the robot like a battle bot while being extremely rude to our alliance members and the judges. If we try to do this sort of thing to them, they can essentially sue us for discrimination, or worse, have the team broken up!

[GGCO]

I've been on a team where this happens, so I totally understand how frustrating this can be. Unfortunately, until your mentors realize this there's not much you can do.

The best solution would be to bring on more technical mentors, make a strict policy regarding alumni working on the robot, and implementing a tiered structure to your team described below:
1. Core - group of 10, leaders, 1+ yrs of team membership, build robot, at space every day
2. Specialists - group of 15-20, newer members w/ lots of potential, have a skill but not master of it, work closely with Core, at space for majority of week
3. Support - rest of the team, they do button making, painting, etc., also put on bumper making duty, team blogging, picture taking, "spirit" (ugh), stuff like that.

After each season, people should be evaluated and placed into the proper "supercell" where they can best grow/learn and contribute to the team.

As for what you can do in the meantime, find others on your team who are the movers of your team - those who get their hands dirty and produce something. Find them and talk with them, my guess is that they feel similar. With those people, talk to your mentors and just with 100% transparency tell them your concerns. If nothing happens because your mentors are satisfied with the status quo, then leave and form your own team. It's well worth keeping your sanity.


I think I just put a target on my back...

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256

If we try to do this sort of thing to them, they can essentially sue us for discrimination, or worse, have the team broken up!

As long as you discriminate based on performance and behavior, and not on their "disability" status, I don't see a problem. Document and make public the requirements early on, regularly emphasize that those who do not meet the participation standards do not travel with the team, and stick to the policy regardless of any complaints when someone fails to make the cut. You might have a tough first year, but it will perhaps weed out those who aren't serious about the goals of FRC, and it will definitely impress on everyone else the fact that actions have consequences.

Thanks Alan! I'll talk to my lead mentor about this.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256

Thanks Alan! I'll talk to my lead mentor about this.

I've worked with children with autism before, and nearly all the parents would actually be disappointed in the team for letting their students get away with such poor behavior.