Who to Choosing Between programming language?

[reuven]

Originally Posted by Ether

The world is flat. During the build season there is very little waiting to get a detailed expert answer on CD.

as a programmer, its faster to me to take the phone and to call to someone here (how also speak my language) then to try describe it in English, and wait 6-7 hours to an answer (usually when i write here u all asleep in the US).

[Ether]

Originally Posted by reuven

as a programmer, its faster to me to take the phone and to call to someone here (how also speak my language) then to try describe it in English, and wait 6-7 hours to an answer (usually when i write here u all asleep in the US).

If language is the primary barrier I would agree, although your English does seem adequate for the task, and folks here at CD are generally very patient and helpful when dealing with non-native English. But the time zone argument doesn't stand up to close scrutiny, given the wide range of hours that CDers monitor the forums and the fact that the US covers 3 time zones.

[Mark McLeod]

Originally Posted by Ether

...the US covers 3 time zones.

...or 6, plus spanning an extra one in there, but who's counting.

[Ether]

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod

...or 6, plus spanning an extra one in there, but who's counting.

Yeah, I worded that rather poorly. My intent was to convey that there's a 3-hour difference between Boston and San Francisco.

[reuven]

Originally Posted by Ether

If language is the primary barrier I would agree, although your English does seem adequate for the task, and folks here at CD are generally very patient and helpful when dealing with non-native English. But the time zone argument doesn't stand up to close scrutiny, given the wide range of hours that CDers monitor the forums and the fact that the US covers 3 time zones.

Thank you for what you wrote about my English :-)
i agree that there are people here all day long and its very useful when you need something, but still if i work here at 10 AM its 3 AM EST ...
another thing to understand is that the build season here is very different then in the US.
for example i can mention the shipping of parts , extra price to pay (shipping to this side of the world is expensive) adding Israeli VAT 16.5% +customs (changes depending on the exact part you order) and everything.....
or converting every unit to a proper system of metric units ....
or arguing about the translation of the rules.
and sometimes to be honest the extra hour of writing in English and waiting for someone in CD the see it in the middle of the night in you're side of the world is avoidable by gust calling a different team in Israel.
i think LV is a good choice because of the support he can get from other teams in the area, this is very important in a tough season like the one FIRST have in israel

[remulasce]

The answer is Python!

[davidthefat]

Our teacher teaches Java in the AP Computer Science because of the obvious reason. Last year, the programming mentors made the executive decision to use Java. I respect their decision. I am the only person there that knows C++ extensively (excluding mentors). All the recruits are from the AP class, so the most obvious answer was Java for us.

Some days, I really want to use C++, I have been using it for years and feel most comfortable with it. We did not do anything complex this year regarding the code. There was just too much friction between the programmers to get anything much done.

[ahollenbach]

Depends on the background of your programmers / the size and experience of your department. You have to remember that most programmers are learning their first code through FIRST.

• If you have a large programming department (at least 2-3 veteran upperclassmen) and a few minions, you're probably alright picking the one you think is best for the job (which is, IMO, C++). Based on sheer experience, you should be able to create some quality working code as well as teach a bit.
• If it is just one mentor, and little experience among the kids, going with what the mentor knows best is wisest.
• If you have little to no experienced kids, and no programming mentors, ask the AP Computer Science teacher, and program in Java. It's wisest though, to find a permanent programming mentor.

My thoughts:
LabView - an interesting and simplistic programming language. However, I'm on the fence as to whether this is a good introduction to programming, because visual programming is significantly different from regular programming, and you can run out of physical space in your layout (*sigh).
Java - probably one of the best ways to keep the new members learning. It has many practical applications with it's GUI component.
C++ - I see C++ as the best tool for the job, but I'll leave it to the professionals to decide.

Oh, and of course you could be fly like 294 or 709 and code in Python

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by ahollenbach

My thoughts:
LabView - an interesting and simplistic programming language. However, I'm on the fence as to whether this is a good introduction to programming, because visual programming is significantly different from regular programming, and you can run out of physical space in your layout (*sigh).

Simplistic? It doesn't sound like you looked very far beneath the surface. LabVIEW for FRC is extremely feature-rich, and it isn't even all of what is available.

If you just think of it as "visual programming" you're missing a significant part of what makes it LabVIEW. The big difference isn't pictures instead of text; it's dataflow programming instead of procedural.

Running out of physical space shouldn't be a problem unless you think it's a good idea to put all of your code in one enormous function. Again, it doesn't sound like you did any serious exploration of LabVIEW.

For students without a lot of prior programming experience, I think LabVIEW has a lot of positive points. The only thing right now that makes me lean at all toward C++ is the time it takes to compile and deploy a program.

[SavtaKenneth]

Just to offset the "if you're in Israel code in LV" argument. We're an Israeli team that programs in Java with about 5 very competent programmers. If you're interested in Java we'd gladly give you assistance any time and way you wish it.

As for choosing the language, most of our programmers came with a background in textual programming so we decided to either use C++ or Java. In the end we went with Java because that is taught at our CS class. I believe it is a great tool for the job, and can do anything the other two languages can. However I believe that all of these languages are a good choice.

[reuven]

Originally Posted by SavtaKenneth

Just to offset the "if you're in Israel code in LV" argument. .

i disagree, although personally i have used C++ for many years (before my FIRST years, when i did have a life) in FIRST Israel LV is the best choice, this is because all the support you get for it here, for an example the seminar that FIRST had here in Hanukkah the language that they thought there was LV, not C++ or JAVA.
in a shrinking 5 week season (we do not work on Saturday's) this support is something very important. and we cant ignore it. this is way my answer is LV.

Originally Posted by SavtaKenneth

However I believe that all of these languages are a good choice

i agree, this is way i speak about the support for the language .

[kenavt]

Originally Posted by ahollenbach

Oh, and of course you could be fly like 294 or 709 and code in Python

While this a little bit of a side detail... do 294 and 709 actually code in Python? How do they make that work?

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by kenavt

While this a little bit of a side detail... do 294 and 709 actually code in Python? How do they make that work?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=92382

[Gdeaver]

LV, C++, Java. They all can run the robot. What I've experienced on our team that made a real difference was the Data Flow or Real Time mind set. Prior to our 2010 season, the robot code had a procedural and web type flavor. Then in 2010 we went for swerve drive and our code had allot of sensors and we closed the loop. We learned the hard way that the coding mindset that our students brought from the CS classes was causing allot of problems. The worst was at our first regional when our robot had a grand Mal seizure. (our team called it the happy dance). That's when it suddenly sank in what all the NI tutorials meant by data flow. By the end of the season our code had been re-written many times as our students embraced the Data Flow mindset. We continued to work on this in 2011. Teams that do not have a programming mentor that is familiar with real time embedded systems are at a disadvantage. No matter what language teams chose life will be nicer if they learn the real time - data flow mind set.

[CastleBravo]

Originally Posted by kenavt

While this a little bit of a side detail... do 294 and 709 actually code in Python? How do they make that work?

Yes, we code in Python. Our robot was running Python at both regionals we attented and champs. After using Python all of build season, I strongly recommend it to other teams. It is far easier to learn and use than the other languages. It is also doesn't require a compiler or any special programs to write, only a basic text editor, which is very helpful if you don't have your usual programming computer at a competition (if you lose the charger, etc.). It is also very quick to change code last minute before a match. While queueing for a match at a regional we had to change the code. Thanks to Python, all we had to do to send it to the robot was to save the file and copy/paste it from a folder on the laptop to the robot and reboot the robot. If we used C++ and had had to wait for windriver to start up, make the change, and then compile/deploy the code, it wouldn't have made it to the robot for the match. It was very fast and easy for me to learn (far faster and easier than C++), and I've heard the same from other teams who have also used Python, which is very helpful if programming isn't one of your teams strengths and you need to teach students quickly. Overall, Python is a great language to program your robot.