[FTC]: FTC 2012 Season Speculation

[TRWSHSHLX]

So what all do you think might be in the 2012 game / season?

Since it won't be about three months until Ken start posting hints about the new game, there's not much to go off with but any wild ideas?

Here's what I think for now:
Somehow the IR beacon will be reintroduced since it was very successful (Hot Shot! and Get Over It!) for the past games. Especially during autonomous.

As for the magnetic, it makes sense for them to utilize it next year since last year's new sensor (IR) was used this year but I don't see it being as huge part of the game since the HT magnetic sensor is not really sensitive.

Autonomous probably will stay the same since the GDC are trying to promote more offensive autonomous and even though not many teams utilized the full forty seconds of autonomous this year, many teams did and they definitely had an advantage.
But the problem with the longer autonomous this year is after one alliance has a significant lead, the game itself is very easily to be able to defend against (guard both rolling goals in the opposite color corner that's made up of the two dispensers and the bridge) and there's not much the other team can do other than balance but usually that will only even the score at best.

What I'm hoping to see in next game / season:
More balanced game periods, as in even if alliances have a significant lead after autonomous, they still have to score so the Tele-Op period doesn't just consist of defense. Possibly somehow change the ranking system a bit so that the winning alliance score is a factor? (Not very likely...)

Possibly a more offensive game?

And isolation zones in autonomous? (Kind of like the new VEX game)

And definitely a bonus (doubler) element since it appeared for two seasons and it definitely affects the game a lot. (last year by doubling score, this year by the POSSIBILITY of doubling the score)

Utilizing the power of Tetrix motors more (VEX motors are way less powerful but they can hang up to 30'' in the air...). Just a thought. And that would help with the game going towards more offensive side since less robots will put six motors on the drivetrain and push robots around... (If there's enough traction )

New parts?
Pneumatics... Probably not. It'd be awesome, awesome though.
Motor replacement gears maybe? (for the broken gears INSIDE the motor gearbox)
Same thing goes for servos (maybe change to METAL?)
New sensors? (I know there're plenty already... But they did developed the IR and Magnetic...)
Tensioner for chains (our team uses standoffs but it'd be nice to have official ones)
Better motor plugs (most teams at world's either solder the leads on or have to utilize some zipties and nonslip pad to make sure it doesn't fall off; problem with 1st solution is teams can't utilize the new fuse wires and 2nd solution is too bulky)

Oh and a patch to the Samantha... According to the volunteers, judges and many people I talked to at World's, there's no three consecutive matches in qualifying rounds that all robots actually moved in auto and tele...

That's it for now...

Any crazy ideas / comments / questions are welcome!

[Andrew Remmers]

Utilizing the power of Tetrix motors more (VEX motors are way less powerful but they can hang up to 30'' in the air...).

Don't you think hanging will be fun!? I think to really test this kit to its full potential they should do a hanging game

J
ust a thought. And that would help with the game going towards more offensive side since less robots will put six motors on the drivetrain and push robots around... (If there's enough traction )

What are you getting at? Isn't it fun to figure out how to play a game with your manipulator having the minimal amount of possible motors then just throwing them all on the drive train just for fun?

New parts?
Pneumatics... Probably not. It'd be awesome, awesome though.
Motor replacement gears maybe? (for the broken gears INSIDE the motor gearbox)
Same thing goes for servos (maybe change to METAL?)
New sensors? (I know there're plenty already... But they did developed the IR and Magnetic...)
Tensioner for chains (our team uses standoffs but it'd be nice to have official ones)
Better motor plugs (most teams at world's either solder the leads on or have to utilize some zipties and nonslip pad to make sure it doesn't fall off; problem with 1st solution is teams can't utilize the new fuse wires and 2nd solution is too bulky)

Pneumatics... You have NO Idea how badly I want that in FTC. Can we get like half inch bores or like up to a maximum spec with stoke bore and such like FRC used to do in the past?! Oh that though is just like the thought of Christmas Morning on Christmas Eve!!! To much awesomeness to compute!

New internal gears are a must! What are they now Brass? the metal is very weak and brittle likes to break in pretty much every application of use... On second thought.... can we just take the gearboxes off, it would be so much simpler

Tensioners - Pshhhh tensioners... If you have access to a laser or water jet you can make FTC sprocket tensioners or "floating tensioners" by adding like 1-2 teeth to the sprocket.

- Andrew

[aklego]

Originally Posted by TRWSHSHLX

Oh and a patch to the Samantha... According to the volunteers, judges and many people I talked to at World's, there's no three consecutive matches in qualifying rounds that all robots actually moved in auto and tele...

In my mind, this needs to be the absolute 1st priority. While there is always an element of luck in a match, this year it was ridiculous. Teams have finite amount of patience and the samantha fiasco is burning through it. The situation is not helped by FIRST's continued silence on the matter.

Hint to FIRST: Teams talk. They know the problems are not isolated or unique to specific tournaments. They are wondering about next year and they are actively investigating alternatives. All is not well.

[Techhexium]

One thing I would like FIRST to resolve is to update team information in the What's going on website. For example, a team would win the Inspire Award. That information will be there when you look up the team. But if a team wins a tournament or an award, it won't say that when you look up the team.

For example, the Techno Guards, team 2848 won the Design Award in San Diego. But when you look up the team, it doesn't say that.

[TRWSHSHLX]

Originally Posted by Techhexium

But if a team wins a tournament or an award, it won't say that when you look up the team.

I think the website only updates Winning Alliance, Finalist Alliance and Inspire award winners in the state level and all awards from World's. (not 100% sure but when I was doing pre-scouting of how teams are qualified to World's I didn't recall any Connect, Innovate Awards, etc.)

As for Samantha, all the issues I've seen can be categorized in this:

Software: Not likely since they all have passed software and field inspection, in fact I don't think I've seen any.

Loose Wire: happens when robot "shakes" and the wire came loose and the samantha cycles through and eventually connects. Check all wiring and problem will be solved. (The FTAs did a very good job checking on that part) One of the things teams might not catch on it's the connectors from the battery and the switch can become loose also.

Low Voltage: this happens when a "dead" battery (technically according to FTAs if the battery is not fresh then they're dead...) is on the robot or the controllers (servo / motor) pull too much current suddenly and drop the voltage down to very low. The way to fix that problem is to have "power management" so there's a "ramp up" to the max speed so it doesn't go to 100% power as fast as it can...

Router / Wi-Fi Connection: I don't think I've seen any teams unable to connect to the system after they passed field and software inspection. It's definitely more convenient since teams only have to press the red button comparing to Bluetooth and teams have to configure their own FCSs on their own laptop.

General Issues:

Not switching from Auto to Tele: the voltage of the NXT battery is too low. The FCS does not keep sending the "start" signal so if the robot "misses" it (the signal is sent more than once but I don't know all the details) then it's not going to move.

Joystick: Not a huge issue but some teams did have problem during the match and the FTA had to come and cycle all the joysticks.

Please tape down & secure all connections!!! No one wants to see four robots spinning and making circles on the field... (happened one time when the emcee tripped over the power cord of the router...)

That's all I can think of for now. Feel free to post more issues (solved & unsolved) so everyone can benefit / figure out how to do it.

If they have a separate battery for the Samantha (not the 12v) and its own switch that's manufactured in the factory, I think it'll solve a lot of problems... Or even a backup battery so if the 12v dropped to a low voltage it kicks in like the VEX Cortex...

Huge thanks to the FTAs at competition, they must go through all these problems pretty much the entire competition...

[Techhexium]

AFAIK, if a team is invited into the World Championship, it will be updated, but I think it is still arbitrary. The one exception from the norm I seen is that 524 was 1st pick of Winning Alliance in NorCal FTC Tournament, but it doesn't say 1st picked, it says Innovate instead. Also I haven't seen any awards won from World (2848 won Innovate in 2008 World, and 2 won Think in 2008 award but it doesn't say so in the website), teams that win Inspire in world aren't mentioned so.

[Scott_4140]

In FTC the teams are required to update the Awards list for their team. They are limited to one entry per season, which is why you only see one award. There also doesn't appear to be any validity checking. I found two teams claiming the same award at the same tournament. I also found several teams listing awards that are listed as qualifying awards for CMP. Not sure if that was intentional to inhibit advanced scouting or if there are provisions that FIRST has not made public.

FIRST should take over entry of awards based on Partner reporting and list all awards.

[Coach Doug]

I think the FTC game needs a few changes or updates. FRC is a good model.

My recommendations:
1: The yearly challenge needs to allow faster set up and scoring by the judges.

2: This would be an enabler for more matches. With either bluetooth or samantha being some sort of a hinderance to many teams - there are way too many matches where its 2 robots vs. 1. Most tournaments only have 5 to 7 matches today and there is not enough separation to show good teams vs. lucky teams. More matches also would de-value the RP differentiator. Most alliance captiains are in that position only due to RP values. Remember last years Hot Shot game - was scoring in your opponents goal to raise the RP an act of gracious professionalism?

3: Limit the alliance selection pool - if only twelve teams will be in the playoffs - selection pool is limited to only top twelve. current system enables the behavior of friends picking friends and de-values any team's record if their not in the top four ( 5th place team is equal to last place team - both have equal chance of making the playoffs). By limiting the selection pool - your scouting is more important as you need to know all the teams.

My two cents based upon 2 yrs of FTC and this year's championship.

[Techhexium]

Originally Posted by Coach Doug

3: Limit the alliance selection pool - if only twelve teams will be in the playoffs - selection pool is limited to only top twelve. current system enables the behavior of friends picking friends and de-values any team's record if their not in the top four ( 5th place team is equal to last place team - both have equal chance of making the playoffs). By limiting the selection pool - your scouting is more important as you need to know all the teams.

As far as I'm aware, when you disregard selection of the 3rd alliance member in terms of FRC, then alliance selection is similar for both FTC and FRC. Both systems allow you to choose whatever member. So those will do effective scouting will get good members and will make it past the semi-finals. I think teams that don't make good decisions don't get very far, and I believe that is not the fault of the system.

[Coach Doug]

You're correct - an FRC team can pick anyone during alliance selection. My FRC model comment really only applies to the first two items.

My recommendation on limiting the alliance selection pool is more of a reward to the teams who finished in top 8 or 12 vs. finishing 5th as an example and watching the 47th team get picked to move on to the playoffs. Again, with the current set up you could be 5th due to no control on your effort - lets say you played against teams with only one working robot so therefore your RP is lower.

[TRWSHSHLX]

Originally Posted by Coach Doug

1: The yearly challenge needs to allow faster set up and scoring by the judges.

I absolutely agree. This year's game is okay but definitely not as convenient as the FRC games or FTC games in the past.

Originally Posted by Coach Doug

2: This would be an enabler for more matches. With either bluetooth or samantha being some sort of a hinderance to many teams - there are way too many matches where its 2 robots vs. 1. Most tournaments only have 5 to 7 matches today and there is not enough separation to show good teams vs. lucky teams. More matches also would de-value the RP differentiator. Most alliance captiains are in that position only due to RP values. Remember last years Hot Shot game - was scoring in your opponents goal to raise the RP an act of gracious professionalism?

If the ranking system is tweaked a bit then it should help differentiate good / lucky teams. I know there're a lot of teams that didn't rank as high as they should at World's because of connection issues.

Originally Posted by Coach Doug

3: Limit the alliance selection pool - if only twelve teams will be in the playoffs - selection pool is limited to only top twelve. current system enables the behavior of friends picking friends and de-values any team's record if their not in the top four ( 5th place team is equal to last place team - both have equal chance of making the playoffs). By limiting the selection pool - your scouting is more important as you need to know all the teams.

I disagree with limiting the selection pool. However I do agree that most teams would pick friends but also there are advantages of picking friends. (know each other, worked together before if is sister teams, etc.) I know many occasions that teams picked very low rank teams (In FTC, FRC and VEX) and end up winning championships. Every captain's goal is to win, and if they know that they are ranked high but don't scout, then it's their loss if they overlooked a strong team.

Our team had never been the 1st seed captain but our team had never loss in eliminations when we're ranked high enough to be captain(2nd seed one time).

Scouting is extremely important but due to the lack of data storage / analysis, unlike FRC which has OPR, DPR, percentile, all thanks to 1114 and many other teams spreadsheet, there's no place where FTC teams can gather all the qualifier / competitions data and make some use of it.

And there are 127 other teams at World's... Some teams have a small team and it's not possible for them to scout all the teams. But with the spreadsheet they can highlight the "potential teams" and scout the ones they think they need to scout.

Nevertheless, scouting is just as important as every other part of the competition, if not the most important part. I've seen many upsets of top seeds because of excellent scouting of lower seeds. (Not even kidding)

Just my 2 cents.

[ryanftc2827]

Originally Posted by Coach Doug

I think the FTC game needs a few changes or updates. FRC is a good model.

3: Limit the alliance selection pool - if only twelve teams will be in the playoffs - selection pool is limited to only top twelve. current system enables the behavior of friends picking friends and de-values any team's record if their not in the top four ( 5th place team is equal to last place team - both have equal chance of making the playoffs). By limiting the selection pool - your scouting is more important as you need to know all the teams.

My two cents based upon 2 yrs of FTC and this year's championship.

I'd have to disagree there. I understand your intention with such a rule would be to make it fair to the teams who finish in the top 15 area and don't get picked. However, If you limit the pool to the top 12, what about the team that finished 13 with one less RP than the 12th placed team? As you said earlier, RPs aren't the best system and 5-7 matches are not enough to separate lucky teams from good teams. Creating some cutoff is unfair to every team below the mark. A good example from this year is the Cyberknights. They had an awesome robot (the same robot finished first in Edison), but had connection issues the entire tournament. Wasn't until their last match when they finally solved their issues and showed what they were capable of. Being buried in the standings due to connections issues, they wouldn't be able to be picked if there was a cutoff.

I understand the frustration of not being picked, our team was 8th in our division last year and 16th this year and we didn't get picked either year. Makes you work that much harder to be a captain next time around.

[Techhexium]

This is offtopic, but scouting is not very established in FTC. If anyone has the FTC Robotics: Tips, Tricks, Strategies, and Secrets book, there are a few tips about scouting there.

Besides that, I can upload in a well-done scouting worksheet.

On topic, I think FIRST needs to look into the community more. Some teams in the community have really contributed a lot but not too many people know that. For example, Team 2, 3595 has published their engineering notebook, and very recently so has team 2848. Team 3539 has developed an updated RobotC Joystick driver that makes the robot stop during communications failure. FIRST should include these kinds of sites in the team resources page in its website.

[normalmutant]

They made new axle collars! Another team bought a new kit and we were able to try them. They are flat instead of rounded, and from what I could tell, they won't strip as easily. They use a larger (and completely different) size of Allen wrench. However, I don't think they updated this in the website.


Concerning Samantha:
The wiring fixes that were released should keep people from disconnecting while great stress is put on the motors. However, we still have the problem of random disconnects. John Toebes said he was looking into using one of those devices the FRCers use to automatically shut off any wifi sources other than Samantha, FTC-Pit, etc. However, he realizes, the problem would be the cost.
This could still possibly work, however. If each region buys one, then that should be enough - the state tournaments within a certain region are not typically on overlapping dates. So, for example, the NJ, DE, East PA, NYC, and Hudson Valley region would all share one. Just an idea.
The most important thing to do now is be supportive. John Toebes is looking out for our best interests - that's why he made Samantha in the first place.

unlike FRC which has OPR, DPR, percentile, all thanks to 1114 and many other teams spreadsheet, there's no place where FTC teams can gather all the qualifier / competitions data and make some use of it.

Anybody up for having a national OPR & DPR website? My team should be able to make one pretty easily; we already have the software. If I can convince the rest of the team to do it, I'll post an update.

[pantherbots4990]

I have attended a competition from every year that we have used the TETRIX system, the one thing I have not seen since FTC started using TETRIX is one robot elevating another, we have done it in FRC before, just not FTC. I am waiting for FIRST to add this as an end-game bonus.