Driver Selection: A Discussion

[Warlord]

Originally Posted by Taylor

I would prefer my driver to be knowledgeable about the game [and] strategy-minded.

This is extremely important. The driver must know every aspect of the game inside and out. There are times when the coach might be micromanaging something else and in those instances the driver must know both what to do in terms of the game and whatever strategy the alliance has decided on beforehand.

Originally Posted by Taylor

An outstanding, if overlooked, quality of a great driver is the ability to do exactly as told, when told, without second-guessing.

Be careful about that, now. I can list off a few instances where my coach told me to do something that was against the rules, or I felt could have ended up in me breaking the rules or breaking our gripper or any number of other things. The driver absolutely cannot just be a dumb conduit for instructions from the coach, a simple joystick monkey. He has to be able to think and act for himself, both to act as a check on the coach and, as stated above, in case the coach is preoccupied for a moment.

I've told my coach before, it's like, I am miles away from needing a coach to play the game - me and my friend are more than good enough to find and pick up a tube, you don't need to tell us that. What I need are time updates and strategy updates. If something changes, then that is something I will probably not know on my own.

Originally Posted by Taylor

Edit: A key skill that drivers need is the ability to diagnose problems. If the drivers have little to no interaction with the design and construction of the actual robot and its subsystems, then when (not if) catastrophes occur, the driver cannot provide insightful, useful information.

In my opinion, if the individual has no somewhat-detailed knowledge of the robot then they have no business being on drive team. You don't necessarily have to know exactly how it was built and how to re-build every piece of it, but you do have to know its limits and how to check and fix parts of it if necessary.

In my case, I helped program a lot of the robot, so if I didn't like how it was driving or if I felt it was turning too fast or something I would just go ahead and change the value that would give me what I wanted, as opposed to trying to explain what the problem was and having everyone involved scratch their head for ten minutes before it got fixed. Just little things like this are extremely important.

______________


As for rewards now, I absolutely hate the notion of giving it to Seniors just because they have "earned it." It's an absolutely ridiculous notion - drive team is all about skill and the ability to think quickly and under pressure, not whoever has been on the team the longest. The two drivers this year were myself (a junior) on the drivetrain and my friend (a sophomore) on the elevator/manipulator. This is better than just giving it to seniors (who it was very clear were far worse than my friend and I, even they admitted it) particularly because now I have an extra year of practice and my friend will have two by the time he is a senior.

[Ian Curtis]

Originally Posted by Warlord

As for rewards now, I absolutely hate the notion of giving it to Seniors just because they have "earned it." It's an absolutely ridiculous notion - drive team is all about skill and the ability to think quickly and under pressure, not whoever has been on the team the longest. The two drivers this year were myself (a junior) on the drivetrain and my friend (a sophomore) on the elevator/manipulator. This is better than just giving it to seniors (who it was very clear were far worse than my friend and I, even they admitted it) particularly because now I have an extra year of practice and my friend will have two by the time he is a senior.

So, let's say next year you get a very dedicated freshman, there every day of the season, contributes to the best of his/her ability, knows the robot well, has lots of R/C experience and is clearly a very qualified driver. Are you willing to give that person a shot at driving?

It's easy to discount the seniority card when you don't have it, and very easy to use when you do.

[akoscielski3]

For the next two years the drivers are me and another person, period. The reason is becasue we both work great together, we are EXCELENT drivers and are always the people working on the robot.

We know that we are good drivers because on practice day of Toronto we weren't there for half of the day becasue of a Ontario wide English test. Two other teamates drove the robot for 3 matches and put about 3 tubes on total. When we got there we played 3 matches and put up about 15-20 in all those matches, total.

When picking drivers make sure the two are people that know how the robot works and helped design it. make sure they work together alot and know how eachother think. also make sure they know ALL the rules and have good strategy!

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by akoscielski3

When we got there we played 3 matches and put up about 15-20 in all those matches, total.

20 tubes in 3 matches is 7 tubes a match. How could a simple driver change make a team go from one tube a match to 7?

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by Warlord

... There are times when the coach might be micromanaging something else and in those instances the driver must know both what to do in terms of the game and whatever strategy the alliance has decided on beforehand ... my coach told me to do something that was against the rules, or I felt could have ended up in me breaking the rules or breaking our gripper or any number of other things.

Sounds like your coach had no business being coach. Perhaps that's fodder for a new thread - Coach Selection: A Discussion? (I know there are countless threads about "what makes a good coach" and "Mentor vs. Student" but the strategies and methods used, for example, in 2004 don't apply these days).

Originally Posted by Warlord

... I've told my coach before, it's like, I am miles away from needing a coach to play the game - me and my friend are more than good enough to find and pick up a tube, you don't need to tell us that. What I need are time updates and strategy updates. If something changes, then that is something I will probably not know on my own.

Sounds like you described the Analyst position, not the Coach position. Two key roles of an effective and successful coach are to serve as communicator between you and your alliance partners, and as an extra set of eyes for the driver. Since the coach is able to move around quite a bit, he or she can find tubes you most likely can't see from your vantage point. He or she can see other robots at other parts of the field, determine their strategies, and give you proper instructions for navigating to the scoring pegs. Picking and placing tubes is a good skill, but it's less than half the real game when played at a high level.
The coach-driver communication and trust is critical; I've never experienced a successful FRC driver that is "miles away from needing a coach to play the game."

[apalrd]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

20 tubes in 3 matches is 7 tubes a match. How could a simple driver change make a team go from one tube a match to 7?

A few weekends ago at the IGVC tournament, changing drivers resulted in a change from 2 tubes a match (with a certain combination of driver+operator) to 6 tubes a match (with the same operator and a different driver, later in the day). That's only changing the driver - not even the operator. Both drivers had driven tank drives before, although one had never driven in competition and the other had driven in an off-season last year. Had the season drivers been there, they could have put up more (their max is currently 9 tubes + mini)

As long as the machine can perform the task, then the drivers make a significant difference in performance.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

20 tubes in 3 matches is 7 tubes a match. How could a simple driver change make a team go from one tube a match to 7?

Very easy especially when they either haven't driven or have little practice with the machine.

[Warlord]

Originally Posted by Taylor

Sounds like you described the Analyst position, not the Coach position. Two key roles of an effective and successful coach are to serve as communicator between you and your alliance partners, and as an extra set of eyes for the driver. Since the coach is able to move around quite a bit, he or she can find tubes you most likely can't see from your vantage point. He or she can see other robots at other parts of the field, determine their strategies, and give you proper instructions for navigating to the scoring pegs. Picking and placing tubes is a good skill, but it's less than half the real game when played at a high level.
The coach-driver communication and trust is critical; I've never experienced a successful FRC driver that is "miles away from needing a coach to play the game."

Well, let me elaborate a bit more.

Essentially, I can play the game myself. Me and my arm guy, we don't need to be told "ok, drive to the tube, ok, now pick up the tube, ok, now turn around, ok, now drive straight." While some of you may not have that perception, my experience is that a lot of people on my team just assume that that is the role of the coach, and I try to stress that it is much different from that.

The key is that rather than micromanage our every action, the coach helps us refine our game, he helps us play the best possible game we can by adding in an extra set of eyes and ears and an extra brain to help make the best possible decisions. You can think of the sequences of events in a game as a series of decisions made by the drive team, and whether or not those decisions were good or bad will determine the outcome of a match (regardless of whether or not those decisions were made beforehand - bad strategies exist). The coach is there to help make the best possible decisions.

There was a time this year when our manipulator broke and my coach told us to try ferrying tubes to our alliance partners. Some time passes and there was just too much traffic for me to effectively push tubes, so I told him hey, this isn't working, let's try playing defense. And I'm really glad I did that because we pretty much shut down their offense.

And there are more times than I can count where I was going in to hang a tube on the second row in front of us when my coach told us that they needed that piece on the top row of the other rack - something that would be difficult for me to see myself, but it's what the coach is there for - not to relay instructions to a joystick monkey, but a critical piece of the puzzle that takes gameplay to the next level.

Put another way, good drivers can make the "best" decision more often than drivers that aren't as experienced or intelligent, but there are loads of times where they don't have the information to make that best possible decision, and that is where the coach comes in.

[Katie_UPS]

Originally Posted by Warlord

Well, let me elaborate a bit more.

Essentially, I can play the game myself.

Not to be a nay-saying-nay-bob-of-negitivity, but the reason you're getting a negative reaction is because you're opening with cocky lines like this.

And one of the things that I believe is that a driver should not be that cocky. If literature has taught me anything, it's that hubris can take down anyone. And I believe that it applies to drivers. I understand that drivers should walk the fine line between "listening to" and "just knowing" what to do, but if a driver thinks they don't need a coach, I don't want them touching the controls. That attitude tells me that they can't work with others and they believe that their opinion is best. Yes, this also requires that a team has an optimal drive coach, but we're talking about an ideal world.

However, I do understand that you mean to say you don't need the mundane instructions "go straight, turn left, pick up tube". So you're point isn't just going over my head.

SIDE NOTE:
Those who say the best driver shouldn't need a coach, I disagree. In my mind, your three driving positions -sans human player- should focus thusly:
-Robot Base (or "Primary Driver") should only be aware of where the wheels are taking the robot. Their attention should only be on the components they control, and the immediate surroundings of said components.
- Manipulator (or "Auxillery" or "Secondary" Driver) should only be focusing on their manipulator in relation to the robot/game pieces etc at all times. They should only be aware of actions pertaining to what they control. The secondary and primary shouldn't be able to tell you much (if any) of the match outside of actions pertaining to their controllers.
- The Drive Coach should be aware of the entire match. They need to know everything else that is going on so that the Primary and Secondary can focus solely on the components they control. The drive coach shouldn't look at the robot; the drivers already have that covered.

All three should communicate what they know so that the others can adjust accordingly. The drive coach should be able to give a report on what happened in the match, the drivers should not.

Originally Posted by Warlord

Essentially, I can play the game myself.

Originally Posted by akoscielski3

For the next two years the drivers are me and another person, period. The reason is becasue we both work great together, we are EXCELENT drivers and are always the people working on the robot.

We know that we are good drivers because...

This is me taking this personally: I'm sick of drivers telling me that they are THE BEST driver ever. Just because you are good now doesn't mean that you will be the driver for the next two years. Someone better can (and will) come along. When you assume you will be driver, you're killing morale and annoying your teammates. </end rant>

Originally Posted by Ian Curtis

So, let's say next year you get a very dedicated freshman, there every day of the season, contributes to the best of his/her ability, knows the robot well, has lots of R/C experience and is clearly a very qualified driver. Are you willing to give that person a shot at driving?

It's easy to discount the seniority card when you don't have it, and very easy to use when you do.

Driving is half-reward, have skill in my mind. Driving is also a "glamorous" job. I know there is a lot of pressure and work that goes into it: I was there once. But for some, driving is the be-all-end-all; it's the coolest thing you could do. I don't feel as though I need to argue that point. And because of that, I'd be hesitant to give it to a rookie.

As Dean always says "You get what you celebrate". I understand the kid put in the hours and was dedicated (thus celebrating hard work), but you're also telling your students that longevity isn't important. If all of the older kids aren't giving it the time, then give the kid the sticks... But if you have dedicated students who are older but with reasonably less skill, I would argue the veteran students should get it. They've invested a lot of their time into the program and team and should get some sort of reward for it (the satisfaction of a job well done doesn't always cut it).

But I get torn, because this is a competition, not just a show. And you want the best people out there. At the same time, we're dealing with people and we have to treat them like such.

[Debbie]

Originally Posted by Taylor

I would prefer my driver to be knowledgeable about the game, strategy-minded, and coachable. An outstanding, if overlooked, quality of a great driver is the ability to do exactly as told, when told, without second-guessing. Robot driving is not the place for ego or bravado. The person can be the best driver in the world, but when the penalties add up due to lack of robot and game knowledge or communication skills, it's no good.
This scenario strongly suggests that the prospective drivers are headstrong and cocky, not what I'm looking for.

Edit: A key skill that drivers need is the ability to diagnose problems. If the drivers have little to no interaction with the design and construction of the actual robot and its subsystems, then when (not if) catastrophes occur, the driver cannot provide insightful, useful information.

Well said and I couldn't agree more!

To everyone who may feel in any way offended, I'm sorry in advance, but this is just my opinion. I hear a lot of people saying that the "more dedicated" student has priority before the "skilled" student. Well, what I don't understand is, If you have a dedicated student who works on the robot a lot through the season, and knows almost everything about the robot, and another student, who doesn't work as much on the robot, but has tons of practice driving and spends almost every meeting just driving the robot, then who should drive between the two of them? Now, some people will argue that the more dedicated student should drive, since he/she worked on the robot the most, but I think that the more skilled student should drive.

Why?

Because this student has more "dedication" to the position of driving the robot. The student who works on building the robot may know it like the back of their hand, but speaking from a driver's point of view, they know almost nothing when they get behind the controller.

It's like a game of football. As a coach, would you rather have the player who has been the quarterback before and is good at it be the quarterback, or the player who spent countless hours fixing footballs, washing the team's jerseys, and preparing the team for each match be the quarterback?

Personally, I'd choose the more skilled player.

We as FIRSTers work for 6 straight weeks to build an awesome robot. For the most part, everybody puts a lot of work into the robot, and most people want to drive. Sometimes you have 30 people on a team who want to drive. So, why only choose the most skilled?

I don't know about other teams, but this is a bit how my team works: Each and every person has a job. Each and every person should try their best at that job. We all have a common goal: For the team to win. (I know someone's going to respond and say that it's not about winning, but seriously, who doesn't try to win???) So, we all do our work in the best interest of the team. So when it comes to picking drivers, the most skilled drivers are going to win more than the unskilled drivers, so naturally it is in the team's best interest to choose the skilled drivers.

Again, I'm sorry if anybody disagrees, but this is just my opinion.

[Frenchie461]

Personally, I like the way 461 selects drivers (at least for this year). The driver had to have been an active person during build season, had to pass a written test on the rules, and then there was a driver skill tryout. The highest combined score between the 3 got the position.

[Nick Lawrence]

1503 chooses it's drivers on lots of different criteria. In no particular order, we evaluate potential drivers on skill, commitment, mentality under stress, how well they work with other students. Generally, two students are chosen who are friends with each other, and work well together in the shop.

The actual selection process is kind of neat. First, candidates must email our head mentor during build season outlining why they want to be a driver. Then, that mentor interviews the students with several questions, much like a job interview. After that, all the mentors on the team converse and select drivers based off the information given in the interviews, and their general observations in the shop, etc.

I had the pleasure of working with a new operator this year, who proved himself during the fall VRC season up here in Canada. He's a phenomenal kid. We never really spoke during matches, unless it was about what we wanted for lunch or dinner later. We simply always knew what one another was going to do on the field. We were like this from day one of practice to our last match at Champs.

-Nick

[EricH]

Andrew, I'm going to suggest the reason that dedication is taking precedence over skill for a lot of people. Actually, multiple reasons...

1) If all you're doing is driving the robot, sure, you'll be skilled at that. But now, picture this: It's match F2 at your event, and your robot suddenly has a major failure. You have no timeout, and the finals are tied 1-1. Your opponents also don't have a timeout. You used your backup card already. And you have someone on the drive team who has little to no idea how to fix the robot, because he spent all his time driving. (We're using worst-case scenario here: you have a limited number of people allowed during finals, and you can't make the pits in time. Venue-dependent, of course.) That's one set of hands that is, for all intents and purposes, useless in trying to get a fix done in time. Well, go-fers aren't useless, but they do need some speed.

What I'm trying to get at here is that if all you're doing is driving, you don't know where problems might be, which means that the pit crew has to find them. If you have some idea of where problems are (because you spent some time building and learned that, say, gearboxes that get out of alignment bind up), you're a lot more useful to the team. And that extra pair of hands fixing the robot just might make the difference between winning and losing match F3--and the event.

2) Driving skills can be learned (well, assuming that someone isn't taking all the stick time) by just about anybody. Some people just have a better knack at it, or need time to mature in that position. I could drive a robot. Would I be as good as some other members of my team? Nope. Could I get there, with time? Probably. With that same amount of time, could they improve? Sure.

3) This is purely hypothetical here, as is the next situation: Let's assume, for a moment, that you have a case where you really need the driver to do something else for 10 minutes. Maybe it's something that people don't really want to do, or maybe it isn't, but someone has to do it, and everyone else is busy (or trying to do it alone). Let's also say that it's important for some reason. If the driver can't leave practicing for 10 minutes, I'd be somewhat concerned about how much of a team player he is/was/will be when there are others out there. (How concerned depends on how much of a pattern I could see of that sort of thing.) See the finals repair above.

4) Second hypothetical--but this one has happened: The skilled driver is incapacitated. How is beyond where I want to go, but let's figure it's serious enough that he's out for significant time (day, 2 days, maybe even all competition). Now, tell me this: who drives? Right. Nobody--unless someone else dedicated steps up.

Personally, what I'd do with the skilled/not quite knowledgeable vs. knowledgeable/not quite skilled situation is: If you've got the skills, but aren't learning much about the robot (like, where the likely failure points are, or something similar), then you can train someone who is more dedicated to finding those areas that you don't have experience in how to drive. You can be a backup driver. But I personally would not want that skilled person as a driver in the finals. Not for lack of skill, but because I can't rely on him to be able to diagnose and fix stuff in a hurry. At the same time, the person he is training should be teaching him how the robot functions/works. Then, let the chips fall where they may, I don't have just one driver...

...I have 2 drivers with slightly different strengths (one stronger in driving, one stronger in diagnosis and repair), and can pick a primary and a backup based on other factors like maturity, class standing, who buys me more pizzas, and all that sort of thing. I can even put both of them on finals pit crew, allowing for emergency substitution if needed.

Originally Posted by EricH

Andrew, I'm going to suggest the reason that dedication is taking precedence over skill for a lot of people. Actually, multiple reasons...

1) If all you're doing is driving the robot, sure, you'll be skilled at that. But now, picture this: It's match F2 at your event, and your robot suddenly has a major failure. You have no timeout, and the finals are tied 1-1. Your opponents also don't have a timeout. You used your backup card already. And you have someone on the drive team who has little to no idea how to fix the robot, because he spent all his time driving. (We're using worst-case scenario here: you have a limited number of people allowed during finals, and you can't make the pits in time. Venue-dependent, of course.) That's one set of hands that is, for all intents and purposes, useless in trying to get a fix done in time. Well, go-fers aren't useless, but they do need some speed.

What I'm trying to get at here is that if all you're doing is driving, you don't know where problems might be, which means that the pit crew has to find them. If you have some idea of where problems are (because you spent some time building and learned that, say, gearboxes that get out of alignment bind up), you're a lot more useful to the team. And that extra pair of hands fixing the robot just might make the difference between winning and losing match F3--and the event.

2) Driving skills can be learned (well, assuming that someone isn't taking all the stick time) by just about anybody. Some people just have a better knack at it, or need time to mature in that position. I could drive a robot. Would I be as good as some other members of my team? Nope. Could I get there, with time? Probably. With that same amount of time, could they improve? Sure.

3) This is purely hypothetical here, as is the next situation: Let's assume, for a moment, that you have a case where you really need the driver to do something else for 10 minutes. Maybe it's something that people don't really want to do, or maybe it isn't, but someone has to do it, and everyone else is busy (or trying to do it alone). Let's also say that it's important for some reason. If the driver can't leave practicing for 10 minutes, I'd be somewhat concerned about how much of a team player he is/was/will be when there are others out there. (How concerned depends on how much of a pattern I could see of that sort of thing.) See the finals repair above.

4) Second hypothetical--but this one has happened: The skilled driver is incapacitated. How is beyond where I want to go, but let's figure it's serious enough that he's out for significant time (day, 2 days, maybe even all competition). Now, tell me this: who drives? Right. Nobody--unless someone else dedicated steps up.

Personally, what I'd do with the skilled/not quite knowledgeable vs. knowledgeable/not quite skilled situation is: If you've got the skills, but aren't learning much about the robot (like, where the likely failure points are, or something similar), then you can train someone who is more dedicated to finding those areas that you don't have experience in how to drive. You can be a backup driver. But I personally would not want that skilled person as a driver in the finals. Not for lack of skill, but because I can't rely on him to be able to diagnose and fix stuff in a hurry. At the same time, the person he is training should be teaching him how the robot functions/works. Then, let the chips fall where they may, I don't have just one driver...

...I have 2 drivers with slightly different strengths (one stronger in driving, one stronger in diagnosis and repair), and can pick a primary and a backup based on other factors like maturity, class standing, who buys me more pizzas, and all that sort of thing. I can even put both of them on finals pit crew, allowing for emergency substitution if needed.

I know exactly what you mean, and I completely agree with it. My only point is that skill is more important than people are giving it credit for. People are ranking in 4th or 5th most important on their lists, and I just though skill was a bit more important than most people stated. Like I said in an earlier post, there are a lot more qualities in a good driver than just skill, such as knowing the robot and being a part of the building/construction process, but skill is also important. A famous saying in my team goes, "A good driver can make a bad robot succeed, and a bad driver can make a good robot fail". (Credit to Karthik from 1114 for the quote.) In conclusion, I don't mean at all that knowing the robot wasn't important (and I'm truly sorry if I made it sound that way), I just meant that skill is a little more important than some people may think.