Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?

[Katie_UPS]

EDIT: While writing my post, a flurry of others clearing up the costs of districts appeared. Information is repetitive

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the cost of attending 3 regionals and the Championship Event significantly more expensive than 2 districts, State Championship and then the Championship Event? If so, wouldn't that be an advantage to the district model and not a drawback?

Okay, so. I'm not from michigan, I can't answer the OP's questions. However, I'd like to shed some light on this particular subject.

According to usFIRST.org, costs are as follows:

Veteran Team costs (numbers change for rookies/veteran teams without the new control system):

In MI:
KOP + 2 district events: $5000
Additional district event: $500
State Champs: $4000
FIRST Championship Event: $5000

Everywhere else:
KOP + 1 regional event: $5000
Additional regional event: $4000
FIRST Championship Event: $5000

No matter where you are, the minimum to play is $5000 (to clear up any confusion).

To get to champs in an earn-to-play way (winning events/chairmans/EI/rookie all star), it costs teams

in MI: $5000 (registration) + $4000 (State) + $5000 (champs)= $14,000

not in MI: $5000 (registration) + $5000 (champs)= $10,000

So, for MI teams to say its more expensive is reasonable. They have to fund-raise an extra $4000 dollars for the intermediate step that is state. YES, they have more events for the initial cost (and a third district isn't too pricey), however, they need to pay the equivalent of TWO regionals to qualify for champs. Not-in-MI teams only need to pay for one regional to qualify for champs.

Teams that could only afford a regional and champs on the old system can't do that anymore (I'm assuming earn-to-play). To "be the best" in MI means that you also have to be able to afford/budget all the extra levels of competition.

(I'm sure someone will say "Then just fundraise more," but I'm just pointing out the fact that MI teams have to pay more to earn-to-play at champs)

[sgreco]

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

To get to champs in an earn-to-play way (winning events/chairmans/EI/rookie all star), it costs teams

in MI: $5000 (registration) + $4000 (State) + $5000 (champs)= $14,000

not in MI: $5000 (registration) + $5000 (champs)= $10,000

(I'm sure someone will say "Then just fundraise more," but I'm just pointing out the fact that MI teams have to pay more to earn-to-play at champs)

I understand that to get to Nationals it could be cheaper out of state, but Michigan team can also opt to attend a regional. If they don't like the steps in districts, they can leave the state and do what everyone else does. The Michigan team also gets 4 events in this comparison, not 2 like the other team. It may be more money, but they are also getting more.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by sgreco

I understand that to get to Nationals it could be cheaper out of state, but Michigan team can also opt to attend a regional. If they don't like the steps in districts, they can leave the state and do what everyone else does.

I heard once of a team that wanted to opt out of MI and just go to the WI regional. Even if they opt to do this, they still had to pay the Michigan registration fee, making their only regional $9,000.

[sgreco]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I heard once of a team that wanted to opt out of MI and just go to the WI regional. Even if they opt to do this, they still had to pay the Michigan registration fee, making their only regional $9,000.

They paid $9000 and went to the WI regional, but did they attend 2 districts as well?

[AdamHeard]

I have no numbers to back this up, but from posts I've seen it seems like single regional teams are in the minority at champs. Furthermore, single regional teams are vastly the minority in elims at champs, and ridiculously in the minority for division/champs winners. There are some exceptions of course, but for how many teams total do a single regional, the numbers are low at champs.

So, if you want to go to champs (and do well), go to two regionals first

[Mark McLeod]

I think you might want to run real numbers on this before making up such a conclusion.
I just looked and it's almost 50/50 (46% vs 54%).

Statistically speaking, people can be notoriously bad guessers. (Apartment for Peggy)

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

I have no numbers to back this up, but from posts I've seen it seems like single regional teams are in the minority at champs. Furthermore, single regional teams are vastly the minority in elims at champs, and ridiculously in the minority for division/champs winners. There are some exceptions of course, but for how many teams total do a single regional, the numbers are low at champs.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Mark McLeod

I think you might want to run real numbers on this before making up such a conclusion.
I just looked and it's almost 50/50 (46% vs 54%).

I stand corrected.

Do you have numbers on eliminations by chance?

[Tom Line]

Pro's:
1. We pay less to play more. This has all sorts of benefits:

• Exposure to more robots and more teams
• More practice
• More time to work out the bugs on the robots during competition
• More friendships with awesome Michigan teams
• Rapid-fire turn around means the teams get very good at fixing their problems

2. For awards like Chairmans, we get far more practice (have to present multiple times)
3. Michigan sends teams to championship that have done well repeatedly. Not just 1 time.

Con's:
1. Generally speaking, the field of teams we see in Michigan is limited to Michigan. I miss going up against Wildstangs, Technokats, Beatty, and many others nearby.
2. The events are somewhat less glamorous.
3. The district events are very much 'jammed' time wise. A day is cut out of a district to save money, which means we're usually up scouting until 1 AM on Friday night. There's no reall time to go swimming, go out and get a nice meal, etc if you're planning on picking the next day. Likewise, we start earlier. It's exhausting compared to a regional. We're HAPPY to go to state championships and world championships because, frankly, it's WAY more laid back with a much longer turn-around time between matches.

All in all, the district model is superior in my mind. However, there are things I miss about the regionals events - the glamor and glitz, the laid-back atmosphere and time to have fun, etc.

[nikeairmancurry]

Originally Posted by sgreco

They paid $9000 and went to the WI regional, but did they attend 2 districts as well?

This is true... and many of teams opt to do this each year...

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by sgreco

They paid $9000 and went to the WI regional, but did they attend 2 districts as well?

I think they ended up just doing Districts, but what I was trying to say though is that you have to pay $5,000 even if you opt out of any districts. I think?

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

To get to champs in an earn-to-play way (winning events/chairmans/EI/rookie all star), it costs teams

in MI: $5000 (registration) + $4000 (State) + $5000 (champs)= $14,000

not in MI: $5000 (registration) + $5000 (champs)= $10,000

Yes this is true, but it is only one way to look at how your team is spending money (ie: what you are getting for the cost of the competition).

Another way to look at it is how much playing time you are getting with your robot. In that case, the matches/dollar (or dollars/match) metric may be a viable way to see what kind of payback your getting per model.

In that case, for a Michigan team electing to go to 3 districts we could see this:
-Assuming 14 official matches/competition as an average
-14 matches/competition * 3 competitions = 42 matches
-$5500 dollars (registration fee + 1 extra district) / 42 matches = ~$131.00/match played

For a team outside Michigan to reach the same # of matches:
-$5000 registration & 1 regional + $4000 2nd regional + $4000 3rd regional = $13000
-$13000 / 42 matches = ~$309.50/match played


In your example, the team from Michigan did have to pay an additional $4000 dollars to get to Championships, but they also got approximately 50% more matches played than the team from outside of Michigan for that cost. In dollar/match terms:

-Michigan team going to championship: $14000/56 matches played = $250/match
-Outside Michigan team to championship: $10000/28 matches played = $357/match

Furthermore, if the Michigan team wanted to pay the extra $500 dollars for a 3rd district, and an outside Michigan team wanted to go to a 2nd regional you get this:

-Michigan team, 3 districts, states and championship: $14,500/70 matches played = $207.14/match
-Outside michigan team, 2 regionals, championship: $14,000/42 matches played = $333.33/match


I don't necessarily agree that this is the best way to see how much bang your getting for each buck your team spends, but its an alternate way to look at the different models.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all teams also have a chance to register for an open slot at Championships, as few as they may be. Often times, teams who win a competition may not be able to go to Championship just because booking a trip in a matter of weeks can be too difficult. Its just another side of the coin to look at.

-Brando

[nikeairmancurry]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

Yes this is true, but it is only one way to look at how your team is spending money (ie: what you are getting for the cost of the competition).

Another way to look at it is how much playing time you are getting with your robot. In that case, the matches/dollar (or dollars/match) metric may be a viable way to see what kind of payback your getting per model.

In that case, for a Michigan team electing to go to 3 districts we could see this:
-Assuming 14 official matches/competition as an average
-14 matches/competition * 3 competitions = 42 matches
-$5500 dollars (registration fee + 1 extra district) / 42 matches = ~$131.00/match played

For a team outside Michigan to reach the same # of matches:
-$5000 registration & 1 regional + $4000 2nd regional + $4000 3rd regional = $13000
-$13000 / 42 matches = ~$309.50/match played

I don't necessarily agree that this is the best way to see how much bang your getting for each buck your team spends, but its an alternate way to look at the different models.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all teams also have a chance to register for an open slot at Championships, as few as they may be. Often times, teams who win a competition may not be able to go to Championship just because booking a trip in a matter of weeks can be too difficult. Its just another side of the coin to look at.

-Brando

I do not believe most regionals average that 14 matches per event number, I would say its closer to 10 or 11

[sgreco]

Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry

I do not believe most regionals average that 14 matches per event number, I would say its closer to 10 or 11

I think he is counting eliminations as well as qualifications, not just qualifications.

[the man]

Back on topic a little.
I like they way we do it in Michigan. We have a lot of events we can attend and the excitement of state and even nationals. Either way I like Michigan's ways.

[GaryVoshol]

The thing I miss most in the District system is not getting to see out of state teams. That could possibly be fixed with cross-district exchanges in the future as the district model expands. There would have to be some kind of limits put on it, but I think a workable model for traveling to other areas could be worked out.

The greatest cost benefit is for the average teams. In Michigan they get 2 events and at least 24 matches for their initial entry fee. Teams that go to a regional get one event with as few as 7 matches, although I understand they are trying to get more matches in most regionals. Still, it's a difference of ~10 matches vs. 24.

Yes, the State Championship costs $4000 extra, the same price as a second regional elsewhere. And with the point structure I don't think it is possible to qualify for the Championship event without going to State. (It might be mathematically possible, but highly unlikely.) But as pointed out above, many teams go to a second regional as is, so the total registration costs for the season are the same.

For some teams there is an additional travel expense to get to a second district event. In SE Michigan most teams are within daily driving distance of their 2 events if they choose to go to the nearest ones. But some teams elect to go to a more distant district. OK, travel to Traverse City or Niles might not be as exciting as travel to Orlando or New York, but the biggest draw to travel is going with your team, not the destination.

Also district events are only 2 days, so you only have to miss one day of school (unless you have to travel on Thursday).

So while there are a few drawbacks, the benefits far outweigh them in my estimation.