Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?

[Aren Siekmeier]

[Edit] Looks like Nicholas got it well ahead of me... [/Edit]

OK I see lots of different stuff flying around, so I'll try to put it all to rest.

http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprogr...nt.aspx?id=460

Teams outside of MI pay $5000 for 1 regional and 1 KoP
Teams in MI pay $5000 for 2 districts and 1 KoP
Each additional regional is $4000
A 3rd MI district is $500 (I'm assuming you can only attend 3?)
MI State is $4000 (for MI teams only)
The World Championship is $5000

So with those numbers in front of me, the district system seems like it might be a good deal. But there are certainly a multitude of other factors to assess.

[GGCO]

Originally Posted by mobilegamer999

So the cost of 2 regionals IS the same as 2 district events.

Wrong.

Michigan
-------------
$5000 = 2 Districts + KOP

Not Michigan
-------------------
$9000 = 2 Regionals + KOP

[Katie_UPS]

EDIT: While writing my post, a flurry of others clearing up the costs of districts appeared. Information is repetitive

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the cost of attending 3 regionals and the Championship Event significantly more expensive than 2 districts, State Championship and then the Championship Event? If so, wouldn't that be an advantage to the district model and not a drawback?

Okay, so. I'm not from michigan, I can't answer the OP's questions. However, I'd like to shed some light on this particular subject.

According to usFIRST.org, costs are as follows:

Veteran Team costs (numbers change for rookies/veteran teams without the new control system):

In MI:
KOP + 2 district events: $5000
Additional district event: $500
State Champs: $4000
FIRST Championship Event: $5000

Everywhere else:
KOP + 1 regional event: $5000
Additional regional event: $4000
FIRST Championship Event: $5000

No matter where you are, the minimum to play is $5000 (to clear up any confusion).

To get to champs in an earn-to-play way (winning events/chairmans/EI/rookie all star), it costs teams

in MI: $5000 (registration) + $4000 (State) + $5000 (champs)= $14,000

not in MI: $5000 (registration) + $5000 (champs)= $10,000

So, for MI teams to say its more expensive is reasonable. They have to fund-raise an extra $4000 dollars for the intermediate step that is state. YES, they have more events for the initial cost (and a third district isn't too pricey), however, they need to pay the equivalent of TWO regionals to qualify for champs. Not-in-MI teams only need to pay for one regional to qualify for champs.

Teams that could only afford a regional and champs on the old system can't do that anymore (I'm assuming earn-to-play). To "be the best" in MI means that you also have to be able to afford/budget all the extra levels of competition.

(I'm sure someone will say "Then just fundraise more," but I'm just pointing out the fact that MI teams have to pay more to earn-to-play at champs)

[sgreco]

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

To get to champs in an earn-to-play way (winning events/chairmans/EI/rookie all star), it costs teams

in MI: $5000 (registration) + $4000 (State) + $5000 (champs)= $14,000

not in MI: $5000 (registration) + $5000 (champs)= $10,000

(I'm sure someone will say "Then just fundraise more," but I'm just pointing out the fact that MI teams have to pay more to earn-to-play at champs)

I understand that to get to Nationals it could be cheaper out of state, but Michigan team can also opt to attend a regional. If they don't like the steps in districts, they can leave the state and do what everyone else does. The Michigan team also gets 4 events in this comparison, not 2 like the other team. It may be more money, but they are also getting more.

[maverickfan138]

To reiterate what has been said, there are many advantages and disadvantages to the Michigan model. I'll start with the advantages.

The cost has already been mentioned. It allows for teams to go to more events, which is what everybody wants, right? After two FIRST seasons, I have competed in eight events. The level of competition has already been mentioned as well. At certain districts, it may not be very competitive, but the State Championship is a blast. Watching teams nearly fill up the racks this past year made it very exciting. One of my favorite parts of FiM stems from competing at more events. I have been able to meet a lot of people from all over the state. Factoring offseason competitions and other events, I have been able to build relationships with not just other students, but alumni, volunteers, and mentors. FiM has a very friendly atmosphere and makes it very easy to build connections.

I do have a few things I don't like about FiM though. The first has to do with this year specifically. I did not like how competition winners did not get an auto-bye into the State Championship. Chairman's, Engineering Inspiration, and one other cultural award did not receive any qualifying points for the State Championship as well. I heard the reason behind this was the separate the cultural awards from other awards and highlight them as special. Instead, I think they should award teams with more qualifying points than regular awards. The biggest problem I see with FiM is that it does seem to isolate teams. Sure, you have teams like 217, 67, 469, etc who already have a name for themselves and everybody knows who they are, but at the saem time, there are plenty of other high caliber teams in Michigan who out of state teams have no clue who they are. In the state of Michigan, teams like 2337, 1918, 2137, 201, 1718, etc. are considered(well, I do, but I'm sure many others do as well) up there with 217, 67, 469, etc., a force to be reckoned with. I'm sure these teams find it very difficult to make a name for themselves down at the Championship, even with their performance on the field.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by sgreco

I understand that to get to Nationals it could be cheaper out of state, but Michigan team can also opt to attend a regional. If they don't like the steps in districts, they can leave the state and do what everyone else does.

I heard once of a team that wanted to opt out of MI and just go to the WI regional. Even if they opt to do this, they still had to pay the Michigan registration fee, making their only regional $9,000.

[Karibou]

Originally Posted by GGCO

Other than that, the smaller district events are more exciting and fast paced. Also they feel more "local" - everyone knows each other. This makes these events feel more competitive and friendly. It's really cool to see a new member meet new people from different communities and schools.

While I agree with this - and love it - one of the biggest things that I miss because of FiM is meeting people from other teams across the country. I was only in FIRST/FRC for one year before the district model began, and my team only went to one out-of-state event (Pittsburgh), but I loved seeing all of the teams from places that I was unfamiliar with. In MI, you don't get to see the international teams either. It is impossible to do two districts, a regional, and the state championship without doing back-to-back events, which tends to put a strain on the students' school performance.

However, as has also been said, the districts are very fast paced and competitive. Getting two districts for the price of one regional allows rookies (and veterans, for that matter) a second chance to compete in case they run into glaring issues at their first event, without breaking the bank.

One other drawback is that the teams on the extreme borders of the area (in this case, the teams in the UP) experience higher travel costs because of their distance from the events. In New England, the events are more local to the teams there, and this wouldn't be as much as a problem. It's just a matter of where to draw the boundary lines.

[sgreco]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I heard once of a team that wanted to opt out of MI and just go to the WI regional. Even if they opt to do this, they still had to pay the Michigan registration fee, making their only regional $9,000.

They paid $9000 and went to the WI regional, but did they attend 2 districts as well?

[AdamHeard]

I have no numbers to back this up, but from posts I've seen it seems like single regional teams are in the minority at champs. Furthermore, single regional teams are vastly the minority in elims at champs, and ridiculously in the minority for division/champs winners. There are some exceptions of course, but for how many teams total do a single regional, the numbers are low at champs.

So, if you want to go to champs (and do well), go to two regionals first

[nikeairmancurry]

Originally Posted by sgreco

They paid $9000 and went to the WI regional, but did they attend 2 districts as well?

This is true... and many of teams opt to do this each year...

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

To get to champs in an earn-to-play way (winning events/chairmans/EI/rookie all star), it costs teams

in MI: $5000 (registration) + $4000 (State) + $5000 (champs)= $14,000

not in MI: $5000 (registration) + $5000 (champs)= $10,000

Yes this is true, but it is only one way to look at how your team is spending money (ie: what you are getting for the cost of the competition).

Another way to look at it is how much playing time you are getting with your robot. In that case, the matches/dollar (or dollars/match) metric may be a viable way to see what kind of payback your getting per model.

In that case, for a Michigan team electing to go to 3 districts we could see this:
-Assuming 14 official matches/competition as an average
-14 matches/competition * 3 competitions = 42 matches
-$5500 dollars (registration fee + 1 extra district) / 42 matches = ~$131.00/match played

For a team outside Michigan to reach the same # of matches:
-$5000 registration & 1 regional + $4000 2nd regional + $4000 3rd regional = $13000
-$13000 / 42 matches = ~$309.50/match played


In your example, the team from Michigan did have to pay an additional $4000 dollars to get to Championships, but they also got approximately 50% more matches played than the team from outside of Michigan for that cost. In dollar/match terms:

-Michigan team going to championship: $14000/56 matches played = $250/match
-Outside Michigan team to championship: $10000/28 matches played = $357/match

Furthermore, if the Michigan team wanted to pay the extra $500 dollars for a 3rd district, and an outside Michigan team wanted to go to a 2nd regional you get this:

-Michigan team, 3 districts, states and championship: $14,500/70 matches played = $207.14/match
-Outside michigan team, 2 regionals, championship: $14,000/42 matches played = $333.33/match


I don't necessarily agree that this is the best way to see how much bang your getting for each buck your team spends, but its an alternate way to look at the different models.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all teams also have a chance to register for an open slot at Championships, as few as they may be. Often times, teams who win a competition may not be able to go to Championship just because booking a trip in a matter of weeks can be too difficult. Its just another side of the coin to look at.

-Brando

[nikeairmancurry]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

Yes this is true, but it is only one way to look at how your team is spending money (ie: what you are getting for the cost of the competition).

Another way to look at it is how much playing time you are getting with your robot. In that case, the matches/dollar (or dollars/match) metric may be a viable way to see what kind of payback your getting per model.

In that case, for a Michigan team electing to go to 3 districts we could see this:
-Assuming 14 official matches/competition as an average
-14 matches/competition * 3 competitions = 42 matches
-$5500 dollars (registration fee + 1 extra district) / 42 matches = ~$131.00/match played

For a team outside Michigan to reach the same # of matches:
-$5000 registration & 1 regional + $4000 2nd regional + $4000 3rd regional = $13000
-$13000 / 42 matches = ~$309.50/match played

I don't necessarily agree that this is the best way to see how much bang your getting for each buck your team spends, but its an alternate way to look at the different models.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe all teams also have a chance to register for an open slot at Championships, as few as they may be. Often times, teams who win a competition may not be able to go to Championship just because booking a trip in a matter of weeks can be too difficult. Its just another side of the coin to look at.

-Brando

I do not believe most regionals average that 14 matches per event number, I would say its closer to 10 or 11

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by sgreco

They paid $9000 and went to the WI regional, but did they attend 2 districts as well?

I think they ended up just doing Districts, but what I was trying to say though is that you have to pay $5,000 even if you opt out of any districts. I think?

[sgreco]

Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry

I do not believe most regionals average that 14 matches per event number, I would say its closer to 10 or 11

I think he is counting eliminations as well as qualifications, not just qualifications.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by nikeairmancurry

I do not believe most regionals average that 14 matches per event number, I would say its closer to 10 or 11

Obviously it was just an approximation. I was assuming 10 qualifiers and 4 elims as thats a typical event for my team. Feel free to tweak your numbers as you wish. I think you will find the correlation is still evident.

-Brando