Michigan, be honest, how is the district model?

[Lil' Lavery]

I'm curious about how teams from the Upper Peninsula feel about the district system these days and how it has evolved.

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I'm curious about how teams from the Upper Peninsula feel about the district system these days and how it has evolved.

Another great question. There is no silver bullet. For the 95% of the teams in the state that this system helps with double the play time, it's definitely tough on teams that are far from the epi-center in southern Michigan. FiM has made an effort to get competitions north. The problem in the past has been that there simply weren't enough teams up there to support it.

We have the Traverse City regional. It's 4.5 hours from Detroit, but 8.5 hours from worse-case Ironwood in the UP. It ends up being a travel-event for all the UP teams anyway. However, the flip side is that pretty much any other event is going to be a travel event for them.

The downside to that is that if they want to earn their way in to States, they MUST attend 2 districts. Of course, their odds of getting in through a single normal regional event and winning to move on would be extremely small as well. 6 of one, half dozen of another.

[prettycolors91]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

I'm curious about how teams from the Upper Peninsula feel about the district system these days and how it has evolved.

To be honest, it has posed significant benefits and challenges for those of us in the U.P. I work with three teams that center around Michigan Tech, and we're about 2.5 hours from the Wisconsin border. On the other hand, it takes us about 9.5 hours to travel to Traverse City, which is the closest district event to us.

The students that I work with have for the most part "grown up" in the district system, but many of the mentors and teachers remember the regional system in Michigan. The district model makes it difficult to coordinate several trips downstate with multiple teams. We are tackling this issue by trying to all attend the same district events, but that is not always possible when spaces fill up so quickly for the "hot" districts. Having all three teams at one district can also pose its problems, because the match turnaround. Many of our mentors "float" during the build season to help address specific needs that cater to their talents, and they can be stretched pretty thin during a district where all of their teams are present.

I am always hopeful that a district event will crop up in the U.P., but it's doubtful. Although many people express that they love traveling to far away places for competitions, the U.P. is probably not on their list of glamorous locales. We have about seven teams in the U.P., which means that we'd have to get at least 30 teams to travel to a new location, which would probably be around the Mackinac or Sioux region, which is still about 5 hours away for those of us in the Western U.P.

Overall, it would be much easier for us if we went to Wisconsin, but we all love the way that FiM is set up, and it gets much more "play" time for our students. I just wish we could have a district a little closer to home to help save on travel costs.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by prettycolors91

...
Overall, it would be much easier for us if we went to Wisconsin, but we all love the way that FiM is set up, and it gets much more "play" time for our students. I just wish we could have a district a little closer to home to help save on travel costs.

So why don't you??? This is a serious question, not a rhetorical one.

The external borders of Michigan aren't magical lines-of-death.

I have a hunch that the presence or absence of a robotics team is usually correlated with the presence or absence of mentors, sponsors and/or faculty who get the urge to form one, and not with a state boundary.

Even when a team's existence is correlated with a state program of some sort, I have a further hunch that the state program(s) usually wouldn't object to the team competing in sane nearby locations.

Surely we/FRC have the ability to form (and evolve) districts that are based on where teams actually exist rather than on 200-300 year old state boundaries that exist for a zillion reasons other than efficient/effective STEM inspiration.

State boundaries often become a crutch rather than an aid in this sort of situation. I hope that doesn't become the case throughout FRC.

Blake

[IKE]

Originally Posted by gblake

So why don't you??? This is a serious question, not a rhetorical one.

I don't believe FIRST HQ would allow a team to opt out in 2009 (first year it was "piloted") because there were concerns of a large group opting out.
UP teams could pay the $5K, and then pay $4K to attend Wisconsin ($9K for 1 event) or they could pay $5K and attend one district and pay $4k and attend Wisconsin ($9k for 2 events). This would be most similar to other 2 event teams (cost/travel), but the District would not allow for a birth to championship like regionals do so they still wouldn't be getting quite as much value for the money (though they would likely get more matches).

All this being said, it is tough for many teams that are fairly isolated from events. Team that are remote relative to Regionals still have to travel large distances (and have for many many years), but they do get more options of where they want to travel to.

If the goal for the 3 UP teams would be to be at the same districts in order to decrease logistical burdens, I would write a polite letter to the board of FiM stating your case. The board may be able to work with the person that finalizes the schedule to make a special case for them.

If the goal of the UP teams was to opt out of the District System, they would likely have to go to FIRST HQ to get approval. That being said if I remember right, even Wisconsin still was 5+ hours and required out of state logistics (many schools have special policies for taking minors across state boarders).

UP teams are in a tough spot, but they are also pretty tough people.

If the District style model spreads, this will hopefully take care of itself. I see in the future a system with around 30-35 Regional Championships and around 100-200 district events (100 Districts = 2000 teams 200 districts = 4000 teams). Each regional championship will likely have 10 or so championship slots. My guess would be that this would be about 5 years out for a conversion.

2009 Michigan District System Pilot
2010-District Model approved, but only Michigan 8% of teams 1 state Championship
2011 District Model approved, but only Michigan 8% of teams 1 state Championship
2012 Michigan and 1 or 2 other regions 16-24% of teams 1 MSC 1or2 "Regional Champsionships"
2013 3-7 more new regions 40-50% of teams 6-10 Regional Championships (some of the big regions may split).
2014 5-10 more regions with probably 75% of teams a district system with 10-20 Regional Championships and hopefully no longer having "boarder restrictions".

[prettycolors91]

Ike, I agree that if the district system spreads, then this problem will eventually work itself out. Until then, there isn't a fantastically affordable option for northern MI teams. Part of the problem is that there really aren't that many people in the UP! We seem to be clustered into isolated areas, but maybe that will change in the future.

Another reason for staying in MI besides cost is that many of us have strong relationships with our home town teams and sponsors. Advice and collaboration from old teams helps with networking, and we can all help each other out in a pinch. For example, HOT let our rookie team 3771 borrow a tool chest for a district where we couldn't transport sufficient tools and spare parts (due to driving in mini vans).

I am always blown away by how helpful FIRSTers can be, even after 10 years of participation. Everybody is always willing to lend a hand, and we lend one whenever we can.

[PayneTrain]

There will come a day when the district model is so widespread that teams won't have an issue, since the model seems to facilitate speedy growth. Problem is, a lack of existing team concentration is a roadblock to instituting the model. It's a weird game of tug-of war the models play.

Is there some place to read up on what MAR is doing? I'm interested in the discussions and ideas people have tossed around.

[mickey d's 71]

i heard a rumor about a midwest district ohio indiana illinois that would be a pretty cool district

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by mickey d's 71

i heard a rumor about a midwest district ohio indiana illinois that would be a pretty cool district

If there's any truth to this statement, which is dubious at this point, I really feel sorry for Pittsburgh-area teams in the coming future.

[mickey d's 71]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

If there's any truth to this statement, which is dubious at this point, I really feel sorry for Pittsburgh-area teams in the coming future.

why do u say that

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by mickey d's 71

why do u say that

Because they would have the SHIFT to competing elsewhere since they can no longer enter those regionals. Allowing teams to compete anywhere allows them to CAPITALIZE on their locations. For example, a team in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan is actually closer to out of state events than in state events.

[mickey d's 71]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Because they would have the SHIFT to competing elsewhere since they can no longer enter those regionals. Allowing teams to compete anywhere allows them to CAPITALIZE on their locations. For example, a team in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan is actually closer to out of state events than in state events.

that makes sense

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by mickey d's 71

why do u say that

It would limit the number of nearby events for Western PA teams to chose from, as it would cut off the Buckeye and Philadelphia regionals. While DC, Baltimore, and Rochester would be potentially viable alternatives for some Western PA teams, cutting off both the ability to travel to the Buckeye and Philadelphia regionals as well as the supply of teams from those regoinals (including Pittsburgh regulars like 48, 128, 222, and 1038) will make things much more complicated for Pittsburgh-area FRC. I don't think anyone wants to see the Pittsburgh regional become a ~30 team regional again.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

If there's any truth to this statement, which is dubious at this point, I really feel sorry for Pittsburgh-area teams in the coming future.

And also the teams in the Milwaukee area, which is around an hour away from Chicago and the Midwest Regional. I believe this year there were around 12-14 teams who went to both the Wisconsin Regional (in Milwaukee) and Midwest (in Chicago).

[Chris Fultz]

Actually what has been discussed is an Indiana / Illinois combo, with the option of Ohio and Wisconsin if those states / teams wanted to become a part of a district type of system.

However, right now, there are not enough events to support a "pay once / play twice" scenario for the number of teams involved.

And, this is all just being discussed. Nothing agreed, Nothing set in place.