9th garde in the FRC?

[yarden.saa]

Hi CD,
Personally I want the 9th graders to be in the FRC because the team will be stronger but our principal don't want it, she thinks they should be in the FLL.
I would like to get some claims why they should be in the FRC in order to convince the principal.
I have already told the principal that:
They are too old to the FLL
Our school can only have two FLL teams because of place and money problems so the FLL should be 7&8 grades and the FRC to the other grades...

I can't make see the whole picture, please help

Yarden

[Mark McLeod]

The FIRST brochure might help. It says:

• FLL grades 4-8
• FRC Grades 9-12

How are your grades organized within your school?
Do all grades share a building? Do the 9th grade students normally mix with the 10-12 grade students?

[EricH]

How old are your 9th graders? As long as they are 14 or under, they should be perfectly fine in FLL.

Now, if you have 9th graders turning 15, then you have a problem--they can't stay in FLL (I don't remember when the cutoff date typically is).


What I would propose to the principal is this:
1) Currently, only 2 FLL teams can be fielded (20 slots). Reserve some of the slots for 9th graders.
2) Allow a limited number of 9th graders on the FRC team for one year as a trial basis.
3) Concurrently with 2, allow 9th graders in FLL. They get to choose which level they're at--barring age issues, of course. (Some of them should be in both, ideally.)

After the one year, re-evaluate. Get input from the 9th graders at both levels on what they liked and disliked. At that point, you can:
-increase FLL support to add a third team
-allow 9th graders in FRC on a more permanent basis
-assign 9th graders to mentor FLL teams

[ebarker]

Be very careful how you say this to the principal, you don't want to sound disrespectful or antagonistic:

The ENTIRE PLANET (more or less)
does FLL for 9 - 14 year olds
and FRC for 9-12th grade students.

If you set an expectation for a student, they will rise to the challenge. (with all due respect to FLL) Your principal is setting too low a standard for the 9th grade students. They are better than that !!

After you get through the stuff above you can then offer a compromise position. The 9th graders can do FTC as a JV type program. It is intermediate from FLL to FRC.

[Chris is me]

Perhaps you can talk the principal into some kind of basic training plan for grade 9s. I.E. FTC / Vex for them in the fall?

[Mark McLeod]

I can see the principals problem if your middle school is grades 7-9 and your high school is grades 10-12.

Keeping the student bodies segregated for underlying parental, administrative, educational, and social reasons may be important.
If that's the case then the suggestion of using FTC as a transition step in the middle school may be more practical.
However, if meeting spaces and funding are limiting you to two FLL teams, then that may not work as an argument either unless one FLL team becomes an FTC team.

[RoboDesigners]

Originally Posted by EricH

Now, if you have 9th graders turning 15, then you have a problem--they can't stay in FLL (I don't remember when the cutoff date typically is).

The current age limit for FLL is as follows:

Originally Posted by FIRST LEGO League website

In the 2011 Food Factor Challenge, over 200,000 9-16* year olds...
*9-14 in the US,Canada, and Mexico

Just wanted to clear something up:

The OP is from Israel. Therefore, even 16 year-olds from their school can compete in FLL.

Also, the age limit is as of January 1 of the competition year (the year before the World Festival) - for this season, 2011. So, if an American/Canadian/Mexican turns 15 in August 2011, they can compete in Food Factor because they were 14 on January 1, 2011. Similarly, if someone from the rest of the world turns 17 in August 2011, they can compete in food factor because they were 16 on January 1, 2011.

I have never done FRC (only FLL), so I cannot think of any reasons right now for 9th grade students to do FRC. Sorry...

//Andrew

[Tom Ore]

Originally Posted by RoboDesigners

I have never done FRC (only FLL), so I cannot think of any reasons right now for 9th grade students to do FRC.

Sounds like a good time for students/alumni/mentors that have done FRC in 9th grade to give their opinions.

[msimon785]

I speak from an unusual standpoint.
I started FRC (yes, FRC) when I was in 7th grade. During the same year, I was in the school's Lego robotics class. As such, I had a chance to work with both FRC and "FLL" in the same year. This being said, I think that there is *nothing* wrong with younger students on an FRC team. Lego is beneficial, but there comes a point at which a student grows out of it.

I was actually at the Israel Regional in 2010, as a freshman, and (while Yarden can attest it was a huge fiasco that most FRCers don't know about) I noticed that about 10% or so of the students there were also in 9th grade, though I am probably off by 2 or 3 percent, either way.

I suggest that you organize a way to bring your principle to the Nokia Center for the 2012 regional. It is amazing how much going to an FRC event can change an administrator's standpoint on robotics.

Apart from that, I think Eric H's suggestion is the best yet. It will sound like an attractive idea to your principle because it is not definitive. It allows for one year of trial before deciding either way.

1) Currently, only 2 FLL teams can be fielded (20 slots). Reserve some of the slots for 9th graders.
2) Allow a limited number of 9th graders on the FRC team for one year as a trial basis.
3) Concurrently with 2, allow 9th graders in FLL. They get to choose which level they're at--barring age issues, of course. (Some of them should be in both, ideally.)

After the one year, re-evaluate. Get input from the 9th graders at both levels on what they liked and disliked. At that point, you can:
-increase FLL support to add a third team
-allow 9th graders in FRC on a more permanent basis
-assign 9th graders to mentor FLL teams

With that being said,
בהצלחה!!

[GaryVoshol]

The international upper age of 16 for FLL was established because there is so little availability of FRC outside North America. As Israel is an exception and does have FRC, you might be able to convince your school that FLL is more appropriate for the younger ages.

[yarden.saa]

many good suggestion that I will try to claim,
our principal was at every regional comppetition since 2005/2006 (she had another team in her last school), she is very supportive but very conservative(FRC should be to high school and FLL should be to middle school....)

thanks!!!

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by yarden.saa

many good suggestion that I will try to claim,
our principal was at every regional comppetition since 2005/2006 (she had another team in her last school), she is very supportive but very conservative(FRC should be to high school and FLL should be to middle school....)

thanks!!!

So by this comment, are you saying that 9th grade is a part of middle school? Clarifying that would be helpful.

Jane

[msimon785]

Originally Posted by JaneYoung

So by this comment, are you saying that 9th grade is a part of middle school? Clarifying that would be helpful.

Jane

Quoted from Wikipedia:

In Israel, the tenth grade is the first year of the high school, which lasts three years (high school is called Tichon), except in some cities (such as Ramat Gan and Giv'atayim), where elementary school ends at 8th Grade and High School starts at 9th Grade.

It seems that yes, 9th grade in Israel is middle school. I'm actually a little surprised I didn't know that.

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by msimon785

It seems that yes, 9th grade in Israel is middle school.

Then, a different approach as far as offering suggestions and advice might be needed. For example - one might state that in countries like the U.S., many of the FRC teams are formed in the high schools, grades 9th - 12th. There are teams that form with members that come from home schools, 4-H clubs, Scouts, and private schools. On some of those teams, middle school students can be found.
--
Are the middle schools and high schools in separate locations and are they in the same districts? By that I mean, here in the U.S., the public schools are in the same school district and the middle schools typically feed into their area high school. So, would a 9th grade student from a middle school automatically join their area high school?

Jane

[Chris Fultz]

I noticed on another team's website that they had "apprentice" members.

Maybe an option could be that 'regular' members are grades 10-12 and then 9th grade students can be apprentices.