Legality of CADing components before build season?

[Frenchie461]

One of my friends and I got in a debate about the Legality of CADing drivetrains ahead of time. For example Team xxxx designs and builds a prototype crab drive during the fall; would it be legal to then use the exact same drive system for the next year's game?

Thanks,
Frenchie461

[aechmtwash11]

As I understand this would be legal as long as the team releases the CAD to the public and rebuilds & remakes all the parts during the build season.

[Alan Anderson]

Expect this rule, or one very like it, to be part of the 2012 FRC game manual.

<R22> No final design, fabrication, or assembly of any elements intended for the final ROBOT is permitted prior to the Kick-off presentation.

The "final design" part would be a problem for the situation you describe.

Technically, as long as it's only a CAD file, and you're not fabricating or building the actual part CADded, I see no problem with this. Look at all of the drive trains that people have CADded and put on Chief Delphi. Those are done before kickoff, but they're still legal to use during the build season. It's like an idea. They can't say "no thinking about ideas for next year's game before kickoff".

[James Tonthat]

My understanding is that you cannot CAD up a design and use it as a finalized design as stated by the rule quoted by Alan Anderson.

But...

Designs are never final, you can always make improvements. I'd be amazed if an experimental drivetrain worked perfectly in it's first iteration and needed absolutely no improvement or change.

Take a look at 254/968's drivetrain, while their drive design may look the same year after year, they are constantly making tweaks and changes to the design.

Teams do CAD and build drivetrains in the offseason, and learn a lot in the process to make changes for the next season.

[Chris is me]

We CADed a drive before the season, but then changed it once the game was announced to better meet our needs. Problem?

[Hawiian Cadder]

My take on the rules this year was that you can use designs from prior years as long as the CAD were open sourced. I wouldn't apply this to all models though, for example, making a model of something that you already have and plan to use, however the manufacturer doesn't release CAD Models.

[Conor Ryan]

This really is a "spirit of the game" kind of call: See this(http://www.usaultimate.org/about/ult..._the_game.aspx

For a variety of reasons.

1. I don't know of anyone thats ever been busted for this (but I may be wrong)

2. This is an educational experience, so please don't hinder yourself

3. Don't violate the Non Disclosure Agreement you may have signed because you found something out about the game before everyone else. So now not only are you in legal trouble, but you clearly can't be in competition also.

My take on it is go ahead and do something with your time and teach yourself, the chances of you using an entire design without any significant modification is pretty close to you being on Shark Week because of a Shark Bite. But hey, teams use the same drive train design repeatedly without any problems. So I think offseason research & development of drivetrains is pretty close to legal.

Also consider: next year's rules haven't been finalized yet, so you really have a chicken before the egg type problem and you won't find the answer out until the FIRST Official Q&A opens up again.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Conor Ryan

3. Don't violate the Non Disclosure Agreement you may have signed because you found something out about the game before everyone else. So now not only are you in legal trouble, but you clearly can't be in competition also.

Everyone I've ever heard of who sets things up early (i.e. people building fields at Remote Kickoffs) has the integrity to remove themselves from any design until Kickoff.

[Conor Ryan]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Everyone I've ever heard of who sets things up early (i.e. people building fields at Remote Kickoffs) has the integrity to remove themselves from any design until Kickoff.

That is very true of everybody I have worked with, but from my understanding NDA's are required for many people participating in many different aspects of kickoff, from field design, construction to kit distribution (even at remote locations that don't end with -anchester).

But at the end of the day it goes back to a what-if scenario, the rules are still meant to protect the integrity of the game. So just don't violate that (and that is how most Head Ref's/Inspectors/et cetera would call that from my understanding)

[lemiant]

I know that it is lawyering, but I thought I'd point out that since we don't have the 2012 manual now; unless FIRST tells us not to create designs NOW, then they cannot reasonably expect not to use what we will have created when they release the rule prohibiting it in 6 months

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by lemiant

I know that it is lawyering, but I thought I'd point out that since we don't have the 2012 manual now; unless FIRST tells us not to create designs NOW, then they cannot reasonably expect not to use what we will have created when they release the rule prohibiting it in 6 months

You're right, we may have created it but we can't use it.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by lemiant

I know that it is lawyering, but I thought I'd point out that since we don't have the 2012 manual now; unless FIRST tells us not to create designs NOW, then they cannot reasonably expect not to use what we will have created when they release the rule prohibiting it in 6 months

However, it can be argued that since the 2012 manual has not been released, the 2011 manual is still in effect. Thus, the 2011 rules are still in effect...

FIRST does not restrict prototyping designs before the competition. However, they do restrict taking the exact design used--or the exact prototype--and using it in competition--or have in the past. You must make some change to be in compliance with the rules. This competition is an engineering competition*; sometimes engineering involves taking past designs and changing them to fit your current problem.

Usually, FIRST's method of enforcing this rule group is to change the game every year. Sometimes, they also change the robot dimensions or other robot requirements--this throws off any designs that already exist, just enough to require them to be retuned. (2005, dimensions; 2009, wheels)

*OK, not totally...but for now, I'm just considering that aspect of it.

[Joe G.]

Originally Posted by lemiant

I know that it is lawyering, but I thought I'd point out that since we don't have the 2012 manual now; unless FIRST tells us not to create designs NOW, then they cannot reasonably expect not to use what we will have created when they release the rule prohibiting it in 6 months

The choice to use what was created/CADded is still being made during build season, after the release of the 2012 rules.

I wouldn't bet on this rule going away anytime soon. Build and CAD all you want, it's a good learning experience, but don't expect to be allowed to use it.

[Tristan Lall]

My take on this is that because the 2011 (and previous) rules are very non-specific about what is meant by final design (nor has FIRST offered much in the way of clarification through official channels), and because it's very hard to find out about the design process unless described by a team member, that clause is nearly unenforceable.

Besides, one could think of all sorts of creative rationalizations: "We changed from 32X M4 machine screws to 16X M4 socket head cap screws; that constitutes a redesign in terms of load path and mass with the intent of putting us under the design weight while still maintaining strength. This is a redesign conducted during the build season of a prototype robot assembly from the preseason. Now we can use that improved robot design [but not preseason parts] in competition." Such a minor redesign and associated explanation is probably not what FIRST intended. But the team is saying all the right things, and the officials must be very cautions making judgments without strong support from the rulebook, especially when clearly and substantially to the detriment of a team. I think the correct call in this case is to permit it, even if you have a strong suspicion they were deliberately making a minor pro forma change to comply with the letter of the rules, irrespective of the spirit.

I'd also disagree that the 2011 rules are in effect. I would consider rules to only be enforceable by competition officials, at official events. With none remaining in the 2011 season, I don't think anybody needs to worry about running afoul of them.

Of course there's a significant chance that the 2012 rules will be similar—and given that there are plenty of 2012 events coming up, you wouldn't want to do anything now that could be enforced against you later on (e.g. if a rule talks about the preseason). And yes, since we haven't seen the 2012 rules yet, we don't actually know whether they'll succumb to the rivet lobby's machinations and ban threaded fasteners. Teams can only speculate, and hope they don't get screwed.