M30?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Andrew, the differences aren't unsafe. We know enough about we're doing to make the distinction between what is somewhat trivial in the rules and what is necessary in a high powered electrical distribution system. For example, last year we ran two window motors off of one victor as we were short on speed controllers.

I assumed that, was merely doing due diligence to make sure someone else didn't come back and read it later and think "oh they wired illegal we can too". I know 973 knows what they are doing, my comments were more general rather than specific to you.

[R.C.]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

While I don't think events should be incredibly stringent on the rules, I'm surprised that you think an event attempting to prevent teams from cheating is so offensive that you'd never return again.

Its not really cheating, its more so its an OFF SEASON event. Keyword OFF SEASON not FIRST REGIONAL. At a FIRST event anything not to the book will not be allowed on the field/Cheating.

We host an offseason event and we don't care what you bring. Our goal of hosting an offseason event:

-Spreading STEM Education
-Involving our community
-Allowing teams to play together
-Train New members
-Have a fun time
-Relaxed setting for teams
-Not really about the robot

If there is clearly a problem, we'll address it. I don't think a team is cheating with any of those mentioned in Adam's post. 973 was at our event last year and they brought 3 robots. Comp bot was perfectly legal and so was their second. Their 3rd wasn't but they graciously donated their 2nd/3rd and let pre rookies team drive it.


Overall if its an offseason event, check with the hosts, but most people are pretty cool with most changes and pretty flexible. But this would not be allowed at a FIRST event.

-RC

[Aren Siekmeier]

Thanks for all the thoughts both specific and general. We're competing at the Minnesota State Fair in a bit over a week and also one or two Minnesota off season events in October/November. We would eventually be able to do PC probably, but specifically for the State Fair we'd like to have things done as fast as possible. We'll probably go with both, test stuff with the M30 (which can be done in a night and a day and they have lots of open M30 machines), and then hopefully be able to reassemble with PC (which takes some setup - they aren't currently printing anything with it) before the Fair.

[ChrisH]

The host team or organization sets the rules. They may or may not be the same as FIRST rules. In general off-seasons tweak the rukles, but this is not always the case.

Knowingly violating any of the rules as defined by the organizers would be cheating. But if they grant a waiver for some small discrepancy, it is not. The difference is you are not trying to get away with something.

ChrisH

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by Brandon Holley

My thoughts on looser rules at offseasons: Assuming its not giving you an extreme competitive advantage, I see no problem with it. We ran with a CIM instead of 775s at IRI this year because we had so many issues with those motors. It provided no competitive advantage (ie: offered no different functionality than our original design), our elevator just went up and down consistently and provided us with some peace of mind knowing that issue was not going to flare up at an inopportune time.

At a small off-season event like our own CAGE Match I would agree with you and would have no problem with what you did but to do this at IRI is wrong.

Using a better more capable motor does give you an unfair advantage over teams that follow the rules. Something small like a repair that puts you a little overweight or maybe an incorrect wire is one thing but I think this is way over the top of acceptable behavior.

[Jon Stratis]

For all those paying attention here out of state, the competition at the State Fair is a little different than other competitions. Basically, the guy running it looks at the game each year and comes up with a number of different solo challenges for teams to do, with each challenge worth points. Every day during the fair, a couple of different teams "compete", and the team that ends up with the highest scores "wins".

Since I already know most of the challenges at the fair this year (The guy organizing it really likes to talk when you drop the robot off for judging), I can guarantee you using M30 won't give you any sort of competitive advantage - simply put, speed isn't an issue. I can also pretty much guarantee you no one there will be comparing your robot to the official FIRST rules.

I do, however, strongly urge you to do appropriate analysis and testing to ensure safety with the new material. The event usually draws a large crowd of people who otherwise don't know about FIRST - we don't want their first impression to be of an exploding minibot.

Again, if you want assistance in figuring out the legality of the material for any of the Minnesota off-season regionals, I'd love to help out. I've been slated to volunteer at both the Roseville and Minne-mini off-season events for a while now.

[EricDrost]

Originally Posted by IndySam

At a small off-season event like our own CAGE Match I would agree with you and would have no problem with what you did but to do this at IRI is wrong.

Using a better more capable motor does give you an unfair advantage over teams that follow the rules. Something small like a repair that puts you a little overweight or maybe an incorrect wire is one thing but I think this is way over the top of acceptable behavior.

I would have to disagree with you on this. If they had extra CIMs in their drive train or in an application where the additional power impacted the performance of their robot (like lifting a 10lb. track ball, not an 8 oz. tube) it would be completely unacceptable. As far as I could tell, their lift had the exact same speed and ability as it did during their regionals.

[Chris is me]

I didn't object to 125's change at IRI, because they made the most direct substitution they could and didn't get a performance advantage out of it (at least, a significant one). They designed the system for the 775 and dropped a CIM in it.

I just have a problem with the idea that offseasons that enforce rules should be looked down upon. If your offseason is okay with your mods, go right ahead, but I wouldn't write off an event because they weren't. That doesn't make sense to me.

[Aren_Hill]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

I just have a problem with the idea that offseasons that enforce rules should be looked down upon. If your offseason is okay with your mods, go right ahead, but I wouldn't write off an event because they weren't. That doesn't make sense to me.

Noone is "looking down upon" any offseason event, Adam is simply looking at what his team hopes to gain from attending offseason competitions and whether the competition in question allows for that.

If I didn't want a ridiculously competitive competition, I just wouldn't go to IRI...I wouldn't "look down upon" it for being the way it is.

If he doesn't want a strict serious competition....he doesn't attend them with the other robots....simple as that. They wanted a competitive serious offseason and attended IRI, bringing only the fully legal robot. Now for other comps they want more room to experiment on new things, and as such are attending much less competitive events and helping out other teams at the same time.