[FTC]: Bowled Over game Poll

[team F.T.C 4240]

Originally Posted by JesseK

Defense: simply put your bowling ball in front of their ramp before the end game. If you can't push it up your own platform, it may be worth it to force them into a decision of risking a 40-pt penalty just to get up their ramp for whatever reason.

We thought of that too, but then we built the field...... and its 4 feet wide, so its very easy to get around it. One of my ideas was to take the ball to the top of the ramp, and go robot bowling!!!!!

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by team F.T.C 4240

... go robot bowling!!!!!

Oh no ><

[team F.T.C 4240]

Just an idea.

[normalmutant]

It could happen. However, since it's only 6 pounds and the slope is only 20degrees, it shouldn't hit any harder than a robot ramming at full speed. I don't know if the rookie bots will survive...

[JesseK]

Technically there isn't a rule against this yet, and it may be effective defense against a number of strategies:

You could pick up their bowling ball, and place it in one of their crates, or one of your crates. For those inclined to be particularly mean, the ball could be placed in a crate that's in/on an opposing alliance's robot. That'll teach 'em!

[alanlevezu]

I don't see a rule that says your bowling ball can't enter their protected area...

A "strike" at the right opportune time to their stack (within the protected area) is technically legal (so far)...

[team F.T.C 4240]

Originally Posted by JesseK

Technically there isn't a rule against this yet, and it may be effective defense against a number of strategies:

You could pick up their bowling ball, and place it in one of their crates, or one of your crates. For those inclined to be particularly mean, the ball could be placed in a crate that's in/on an opposing alliance's robot. That'll teach 'em!

Well there is a rule about not aiming to damage other robots, and even though its a good idea, they might call you for rolling a bowling ball down the ramp just to hit another robot. Here's the rule
2.4.5 <G8> In the FTC game Manual says "Strategies and mechanisms aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of Robots are not in the spirit of the FIRST Tech Challenge and are not allowed. However, Bowled Over! is a highly interactive contact game. Some tipping, entanglement, and damage may occur as a part of normal game play. If the tipping, entanglement, or damage is ruled to be deliberate, the offending team may be Disqualified for that Match. Repeated offenses could result in a team being Disqualified from the remainder of the competition."

[Joachim]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schuetze

What are your thoughts regarding the scoring options and game play?

Lots of varied scoring options, like here, makes for a fun and interesting game. I like how the need to have at least one ball inside the stacked crates makes stacking for points that much more difficult.

I think the referees' job will be hard, though, unless the Q&A and revisions process makes it easier.

As far as I can tell from the rules, the following is the game-specific stuff (not including the usual no pinning, no removing objects, etc.) a ref has to watch during autonomous and driver-controlled, but before end-game:

(I'll start with easy things to spot, then move to the harder ones)

1. No descoring from opponent off-field goal.
2. No placing ball in opponent off-field goal.
3. No pushing your own bowling ball into your Home Zone (or no score during end-game).
4. No pushing opponent bowling ball into your Home Zone.
5. No pushing opponent bowling ball into your Protected Area. (But what about a long-distance roll?)
6. No pushing opponent crate into your Home Zone.
7. No pushing opponent crate into your Protected Area.
8. No removing balls from crate in opponent Protected Area (but OK to remove loose balls from Protected Area and OK to remove from crates elsewhere, including apparently in the opponent Home Zone [although you can't "make contact" with a stationary crate there]).
9. No contacting an opponent crate when the crate is not in contact with arena floor. (-5)
10. No contacting an opponent crate on an inside surface of the crate. (-5)
11. No contacting an opponent crate on more than two outside surfaces of the crate at the same time. (-5)
12. No making contact with "parked" (stationary) crates in opponent's Protected Area or Home Zone. (Ref must watch for moving vs. stationary crates and for borders of Protected Area or Home Zone.)
13. No making contact with "parked" (stationary) stacks in opponent's Protected Area or Home Zone. (Ref must watch for moving vs. stationary stacks and for borders of protected area or home zone.)
14. No "storing, holding, controlling, containing, etc." balls in excess of 15 at any time. (Ref must watch for the 16th "controlled" ball and every additional one beyond.)
15. No making contact with opponent's robot while "stacking" (holding one crate off the ground at least partly over another below it) in "Protected Area" (but not, apparently, in opponent's "Home Zone"). (Ref must watch for "Protected Area" border, for whether lifted crate is actually over another crate, and for whether contact is "made" at that time or only before and/or after.)

During end-game, the ref can ignore #3, which doesn't count then, but has to add:

16. No making contact with opponent bowling ball.
17. No making contact with opponent Home Zone.

These last two are easy by themselves, but monitoring all 15 or 16 of these conditions at the same time, for 4 robots simultaneously, seems like a lot to ask, whether in autonomous, driver control, or end-game.

Maybe they should try four refs per field this year, one for each robot!

Joachim

[PAR_WIG1350]

The # of potential penalties is nothing compared to Logomotion.

[Joachim]

Originally Posted by PAR_WIG1350

The # of potential penalties is nothing compared to Logomotion.

So I guess Logomotion was hard to ref (too)? Did penalties that went unrecognized until after the match decide matches very often in Logomotion?

In Bowled Over, if you subtract the two Protected Areas and Home Zones from the field and add four large FTC robots and 12 un-stacked crates spread out over the rest of the field, almost 1/2 of the rest of the field area is already covered. Then add 100 racket balls which you also have to watch to make sure not more than 15 are "controlled."

It will certainly be fun to play, but the high level of interaction between robots and objects and the many potential penalties will make it hard to ref.

[normalmutant]

1. No descoring from opponent off-field goal.
2. No placing ball in opponent off-field goal.
3. No pushing your own bowling ball into your Home Zone (or no score during end-game).
4. No pushing opponent bowling ball into your Home Zone.
5. No pushing opponent bowling ball into your Protected Area. (But what about a long-distance roll?)
6. No pushing opponent crate into your Home Zone.
7. No pushing opponent crate into your Protected Area.
8. No removing balls from crate in opponent Protected Area (but OK to remove loose balls from Protected Area and OK to remove from crates elsewhere, including apparently in the opponent Home Zone [although you can't "make contact" with a stationary crate there]).
9. No contacting an opponent crate when the crate is not in contact with arena floor. (-5)
10. No contacting an opponent crate on an inside surface of the crate. (-5)
11. No contacting an opponent crate on more than two outside surfaces of the crate at the same time. (-5)
12. No making contact with "parked" (stationary) crates in opponent's Protected Area or Home Zone. (Ref must watch for moving vs. stationary crates and for borders of Protected Area or Home Zone.)
13. No making contact with "parked" (stationary) stacks in opponent's Protected Area or Home Zone. (Ref must watch for moving vs. stationary stacks and for borders of protected area or home zone.)
14. No "storing, holding, controlling, containing, etc." balls in excess of 15 at any time. (Ref must watch for the 16th "controlled" ball and every additional one beyond.)
15. No making contact with opponent's robot while "stacking" (holding one crate off the ground at least partly over another below it) in "Protected Area".
16. No making contact with opponent bowling ball.
17. No making contact with opponent Home Zone.

Nine (or more?) of these have to do with the home zone/protected zone. As long as the refs are watching those closely, it shouldn't be extremely hard. However, learning and remembering all of those rules could be very annoying.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by normalmutant

However, learning and remembering all of those rules could be very annoying.

Refs have cheat sheets for the numbers. They simply need to know if an observed action IS a penalty and the rest can be sorted out after the match.

[MayerMechanic]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/re...411&i=78111317
Would i be right in saying that you could just pull out the bottom ball holder in this stack to legally descore that entire stack?

[NHB836]

Originally Posted by team F.T.C 4240

I agree, yesterday we used a 1:1 gear ratio and could hardly get the ball up the ramp, so gearing down is a good idea. Also the balls are very annoying because the like to go under the robot/wheels also I think "defense bots" will find cool ways to make the "offence bots" work for there points, like maybe pushing some of there crates/balls into a corner while your partner scores. Just some ideas I had.

honestly i believe that instead of worrying about the bowling balls (except in autonomous) it would be better to make higher crate stacks in the endgame. if you add one crate to a 3 crate stack you already have that's 10 more points then the bowling ball could give you

[JohnFogarty]

LED's are allowed in the 12VOLT supply again. YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!