[BB] Bag & Tag in brief and MAR demystified

[JaneYoung]

Originally Posted by Pjohn1959

I don't care what you have to do. Houston would welcome you with great big Texas sized open arms!

We can figure this out/make it work.. right, Paul?

Jane

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by stevend1994

Logistically, anything but honor system is a nightmare. For those who don't know, the 'tags' for bag and tag are basically numbered zip ties. Assuming the technology isn't there to have electronic tracking of the zip ties( ) here's an idea I just came up with:

Give teams 6 'tags', each with the same number(IIRC it was a random number of 5 or 6 characters, I don't know if it was the same for all teams)
By midnight bag+tag night, require teams to submit a picture of the robot in the bag, as well as a picture up close of the seal on the bag, along with the extra 6 zip ties.
For MAR and FiM, require the same for each time teams use the work periods, maybe even have work periods be 'activated' through TIMS

It could work, though I imagine the idea of 1000+ teams trying to upload their pictures through TIMS one the same day could possibly be a nightmare if teams all wait until late-night, but it's an idea.

Reading what I wrote, I realize that I wasn't clear that I didn't intend both of those possibilities to be implemented—one is sufficient. Also, I don't mean for every robot to be independently verified. The mere threat—plus a small sample per regional, chosen by impartial people with an eye to practical considerations—should have a strong deterrent effect.

Your idea about photographing the robots and tags is basically exactly what I was suggesting. If the officials know roughly what a robot looks like on ship day, and can see which tag to expect (and inspect for tampering) at the event, it's much harder to fake it.

Aside: If you really want to track the tags electronically, you could equip them with tamper-evident RFID stickers like they use in consumer goods. I'm not sure what good that would do, though.

[waialua359]

Perhaps I should've been more specific.
The issue is not that FIRST wouldnt make exceptions for teams in our situation, but rather the timing.

Last year, our team attended a bag-tag event at NYC. We werent officially notified until late December that arrangements would be made.
Given the deadline from Bill on December 2, 2011, they would then see what teams have requested for an exemption. Planning a trip for 30+ people ideally isnt done a month or 2 in advance. Once we sign up for a regional, we spend the next several days already making reservations/payments for travel expenses.
I booked our trip early last year, since it was quite obvious with the no. of teams that came from other countries and distances similar to ours, that a drayage site/arrangement would be made. There were other issues that came up with our participation in NY that we'd much rather avoid again. After saying this was going to be our last bag/tag event we ever did last year, I guess not......

[Dave Campbell]

Glenn,
We'll be happy to accept/hold your robot here at our school and get it to the Queen City Regional and then help you ship it to the CMP in St Louis afterward....It would be awesome to have your amazing team competing in our new regional!

[Jared Russell]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

On another note, I wonder if FIRST has a formal plan for enforcement of the bag and tag procedures? Something like requiring submission of photographs of the robots (in the open, and then bagged and sealed) and tags on ship day, with copies to the regionals. Maybe even a procedure for appointed representatives to drop in on short notice to verify compliance. The honour system does work pretty well, but there were some reports of suspicious actions that undermine the integrity of the competition.

Considering that this is a high school robotics competition, and one that preaches professional values as its core tenant, I would hope that the honor system is enough. I question the sanity, even moreso than the morality, of anyone who cheats to win a plastic trophy from a competition for 15-18 year olds.

Moreover, if someone wants to cheat, there are plenty of other ways they could do it. Bringing in more than the witholding allowance, lying about cost, a myriad of robot-related modifcations, etc. I guess my point is, "cheaters gonna cheat" - don't put any more burden on the vast majority of honest teams (or on already-overburdened volunteers) to worry about it.

[Jimmy Nichols]

Originally Posted by EricH

I think the question then becomes, "To where?"

Glenn,

If you sign up for the Queen City Regional and you are not able to get an exemption. I will personally except the crate at my home and bring it with me in our team trailer for load in.

[Jimmy Nichols]

Originally Posted by Dave Campbell

Glenn,
We'll be happy to accept/hold your robot here at our school and get it to the Queen City Regional and then help you ship it to the CMP in St Louis afterward....It would be awesome to have your amazing team competing in our new regional!

You beat me to punch Dave!

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Jared341

Considering that this is a high school robotics competition, and one that preaches professional values as its core tenant, I would hope that the honor system is enough. I question the sanity, even moreso than the morality, of anyone who cheats to win a plastic trophy from a competition for 15-18 year olds.

Moreover, if someone wants to cheat, there are plenty of other ways they could do it. Bringing in more than the witholding allowance, lying about cost, a myriad of robot-related modifcations, etc. I guess my point is, "cheaters gonna cheat" - don't put any more burden on the vast majority of honest teams (or on already-overburdened volunteers) to worry about it.

Jared is on the money here. If you don't abide by the honor system, there's not much reason for you to compete in something where the real engineering challenge is to do incredible things on such a tight deadline. You will end up cheating yourself of the experience.

We haven't had any reported incidents so far, so I don't expect any.

[Flalex72]

For the past two years we have had to ship our robot to the CMP from the home of team 1241, Rick Hansen SS in Mississauga Ontario, because FedEx does not offer shipping to our city. Last year a team from Mexico who attended GTR also had their crate shipped to Rick Hansen both in and out, and I would guess this is how the process would work for other teams who can't bring a robot with them. We had qualified the week before and brought the crate with us to GTR in a pickup, but in 2010 there was a team that didn't have one, and had to borrow one from a local team. We have to ship to a warehouse in Toronto on the way back, so a local company can pick it up and truck it home where FedEx doesn't cover.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

We haven't had any reported incidents so far, so I don't expect any.

Without naming any names or places, this isn't true. At least one regional had a rookie team that didn't know they were supposed to stop building. Another team at another event unbagged longer than allowed. In one particular case, a team blatantly modified their robot after ship date.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Without naming any names or places, this isn't true. At least one regional had a rookie team that didn't know they were supposed to stop building. Another team at another event unbagged longer than allowed. In one particular case, a team blatantly modified their robot after ship date.

Lame...well hopefully this year everyone will help each other make sure they all know the rules?

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Nichols

Glenn,

If you sign up for the Queen City Regional and you are not able to get an exemption. I will personally except the crate at my home and bring it with me in our team trailer for load in.

I can vouch for the size of said team trailer. Tis quite large.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

Without naming any names or places, this isn't true. At least one regional had a rookie team that didn't know they were supposed to stop building. Another team at another event unbagged longer than allowed. In one particular case, a team blatantly modified their robot after ship date.

I have also encountered a few probable instances of deliberate violations of the hands-off rules. Large-scale violations are probably not widespread, but they give a huge advantage to the teams that are tempted to cheat.

I don't think there's much overhead involved in submitting a few photos to FIRST on ship day. Anyone with an cellphone and an e-mail account could do this.

And if FIRST wanted to physically verify a couple teams, that would have a strong deterrent effect: either the teams would have to plan their cheating around a possible visit, or when the school administration learns of the visit, they'll have to explain why they're hurriedly stuffing the robot into a bag. This has a fair bit of overhead for FIRST volunteers, but on the scale of a couple non-randomly-selected teams per regional, it's quite doable.

It's not my intention to be burdensome, but the honour system isn't really enough to prevent teams from bending rules. They come up with all sorts of justifications for their transgressions, but inevitably it comes down to the idea that they're ignoring an implicit resource constraint that is supposed to apply equally to all teams, as a core tenet of the competition. I think FIRST is right to draw a bright line on ship day, because, as you said, it's just a competition, and the ideal alternative from the perspective of a team—equitably assessing who deserves more time—is incredibly difficult.

[NickE]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

And if FIRST wanted to physically verify a couple teams, that would have a strong deterrent effect: either the teams would have to plan their cheating around a possible visit, or when the school administration learns of the visit, they'll have to explain why they're hurriedly stuffing the robot into a bag. This has a fair bit of overhead for FIRST volunteers, but on the scale of a couple non-randomly-selected teams per regional, it's quite doable.

Some teams work in secured facilities where getting the designated FIRST representative access could be a time consuming process, giving the team plenty of notice of the visit. If you believe additional verification is necessary, pictures would be a much easier solution.

[DonRotolo]

[quote=Joe G.;1079067]will teams be able to ship their robots (in bag) to a nearby location (their hotel, for example), and pick it up there? [quote]Thet entireley depends on the Hotel, etc. Some will accept large crates, most will not. But finding a place to ship "to" is not that challenging.

Originally Posted by Tetraman

.I wonder what we will do with our crate, since we don't go to Champs anymore.

Fill it with Donuts and Mountain Dew.

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Not ideal, but I guess you could just ship it privately?

Sure, why not? Millions of tons of cargo go zipping across the country all the time, why not another crate?

Originally Posted by NickE

pictures would be a much easier solution.

Pictures can be faked, like anything else.

Bag & Tag is, at its best, a great solution and a real convenience. At its worst it is a mere inconvenience and expense. This is an easy problem to solve, folks, don't worry much.