New member, new team, questions.

[Dave_222]

we have spent about $16,000 on regionals soo far (we are attending 3). and we have only bought some simple parts so far like wheels and stuff like that.

[dixonij]

have no fear... you will do fine... maybe you will win Rookie All-Star?!? as for money... $7,000 wont get you far... like 222 we are going to three regionals... Chesapeake, Philly, the Rutgers one... we also want to go to nats... most rookie teams arent the greatest but some have good ideas... just work your hardest, be proud of what you did, learn something, and have fun because that is what FIRST is all about.

[Dave_222]

We are going to philly rutgers and Arizona.

[kmcclary]

Don't fear, you'll do fine. You're NOT behind. Teams have NOT built their robots for THIS year's contest yet. They can't, and the rules don't let them reuse their old robots. The Game is DIFFERENT each year, and a small team CAN make a winning robot. My last rookie team WON our very first contest with 12 kids and a PLYWOOD robot!

FYI, this is the second rookie team I've formed in the two years. I'm a FIRST nut who's determined to have a FIRST/FLL team at EVERY local HS/JHS. (Year Two of my 10 Year Plan.)

You can't reuse kit parts if they're not in this year's kit. Same P/N parts can't exceed the # allowed. For motors, that's equals the # in the kit. No advantage.

Teams simply consider the old kits' identical parts "spares". Some DO use their old robots & kit parts to cheaply make a second "practice" robot for drivers training after their main robot has been shipped.

The kit is QUITE extensive, and has ALL of the allowed motors, computers, etc.. That levels the playing field. You'll receive several stackable storage CRATES full of parts. The six week limit on time keeps major corporations from "tooling up" TOO much.

You WILL "learn" from each contest. Many teams refine tech between years (ie drivetrain, gearboxes, grippers) but rules state you MUST build EVERYTHING on the robot DURING the six weeks of the current contest. Therefore, ANYTHING you make NOW is a "prototype", and must be REMADE after Jan 4, 2003.

Pay CLOSE attention to the Additional Hardware List (AHL)! It's the list of "extra stuff" you may add. It is mostly "stock" parts like "plywood, aluminum, pipe", etc..., but there are some interesting items on it.

Machining however is UNLIMITED. Some teams go nuts with basic AHL stock, making car transmissions out of a raw block of metal, vectoring drives, or Transformer (tm) Robots! AVOID COMPLEXITY in year one! FIRST stated that "this year, we'll include ENOUGH stuff in the kit to make a drivetrain in FOUR DAYS". DO THAT.

My advice for year one: KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid. Simple=Reliable! Get a drivetrain up FAST. Avoid gear shifters and "vector drives" at first. IMHO, these "funny drivetrains" cause most of the field failures I've seen. Instead, pick one gear ratio or make it "pit changeable". Focus on "payload" (game) devices and driver practice. You MUST have practice time!

My best advice echos others: Download last year's rules and STUDY THEM. Many things are VERY stable, like the motors, the controls, general safety rules, the batteries, and even the "Qualification vs Final Elimination" format.

<< MONEY >>

There are only a few things that REALLY cost you:

1) FEES: 1st Regional(or Nats)=$5K. EACH additional=$4K. BTW, a NASA grant is $6K, not $7K. $5K for one NASA sponsored regional, and $1K for the robot or other expenses.

Unless you have a GENEROUS sponsor, I recommend finding one additional MAJOR ($5K) sponsor for each additional regional. That equals a regional and $1K more toward the robot per added sponsor. Add ANY >= $5000 sponsor to your Team Name!

IMHO, TWO Regionals = a Good Year. The VERY first Regional is "debugging". By Regional Two, you're cruising well! A NASA grant, and one more "Major" sponsor, and you're all set.

Beyond two regionals, it gets tough. It gets costly (travel & robot ship), & not EVERYONE can afford THAT much time away from school or job. Given more "major cash" sponsors, IMO build a better bot, pay for travel, and SAVE SOME for next fall, vs Regional #3.

Q#1: "Go to Nats??" IMHO, *IF* cash is tight & Nats are FAR away, you're best to avoid it in Year One. It can easily DOUBLE a small team's annual budget, and can break you shooting for it. Figure $1K/person. Build the team this year, THEN shoot for Nats. We're an "odd" team which could attend Nats, but we're NOT trying THIS time. (If by some miracle we WIN a Regional our first time out, then we'll worry about where the money will come from!)

My recommendation for a Regional #3 or Nat replacement: One or more local "Repeat" contests! Many high schools in an area hold CHEAP after season one-day Saturday meets with the current year's robot and contest rules. Hey, we all have the bot, so let's PLAY!!

Repeats are FUN, VERY similar to a Regional, and cost about $400 per event vs $4000! You can STRONGLY stretch a team's annual budget with them. You get PLAY time at about 1/10 the cost, and NO hotel bills!

2) Robot building: Cost is HIGHLY dependent on complexity, and the kind of manufacturing technologies on hand. You'll need a couple of grand MINIMUM (more if building a workshop for the first time and need "basic materials" like boxes of screws), and currently the sky's the limit for $$ (size, weight & AHL govern). If your sponsor(s) include machine shops, you'll probably make a metal robot. If your sponsor is a lumber yard or a plastics house, gee... guess what a lot of your robot will be made out of? USE YOUR LOCAL RESOURCES AND TALENTS.

MANY teams have shifted to "Structural Aluminum" systems for their frames (8020, Bosch, IPS, and similar). Search here for threads about them for more info. They're a modular shelving material that looks like an "X" on the end. It allows you to make a robot with a cutoff saw, drill, screwdriver, and standard nuts and bolts. It's not light per unit length, so be VERY careful about weight. Advantages: It is VERY STRONG, EASY to work with, and FAST to change!

Stretch your building budget: Collect a LOT of local "material sponsors". Go to local hardware stores, lumber yards, plastic houses, a home building electrical supply, a carpet store, (etc.) and ask STORE CREDIT and SCRAPS. About $200-500 is the right amount to shoot for per business. This gives you a "walk in" situation for parts WITHOUT knowing WHAT you need up front. It costs the business a FRACTION of what they can write off for tax purposes (they write off Retail Value). Schools are Government Entities so, donations are FULLY tax deductible. Give them your school's Tax ID number and you even eliminate the Sales Tax! A GREAT deal for everyone involved. Put their name(s) on the back of your team shirts, invite them all to your end of year "Team and Sponsor" Party, and present them with a frame-able certificate for their support.

We built TWO robots last year on a few grand in cash and about 20 of these little donations!

3) Travel costs. A BIG one. If there's a "local" regional, GRAB IT. If you're attempting two regionals, that cuts travel costs in HALF. Vanpool if possible vs flying. Sardine yourselves in rooms at away games. Get a nearby dive. You just need SLEEP. You'll be busy at the contest site during the day and the Team Party at night, and won't be AT that expensive four star hotel!

Our team separates the Local Regional (for us: GLR) and Away Games. We have a Travel Team for any Away Game, whose size is variable.

The way our team works it this year: "All student fundraising gives a 50% credit toward your PERSONAL Away Game travel fund. Raise $1 for the team (net), and you get $.50 credit toward travel costs IF you go to an Away Game. Therefore, if you raise enough team bucks, you go FOR FREE. If not, and wish to join the "traveling team", you may do so by paying the remainder of your own travel, hotel, and food."

This is not a problem for the team to pay for, since they raised the money FOR you! It is quite a motivator, too! This places the size of the Travel Team SOLELY on the motivation of the students! The more they raise, the better the robot we can make, and the larger the Traveling Team. Note if you have TWO "Away Games", the traveling team might NOT be the same! We're only going to one Away Game THIS year, but our rule is that the "Top Fundraisers get FIRST PICK of WHICH game they'll attend, in order of fundraising, until all teams are filled out." Next we backfill the traveling teams, then add ALL self funded members. This spreads the fun around to more students.

3) Team shirts, paraphernalia... My advice: Go for a Material Sponsor for them. Many teams simply make buttons to trade, and you can make your own shirts if necessary.

Last year, my rookie team couldn't get a sponsor for the shirts. So, we did the shirts VERY cheaply. We obtained a donation of new white T-shirts, and bought a few K-mart sale packs as well to supplement them. We then dyed them all with Rit Dye, worked up the art work on the school's computers, and silk screen printed them in the school's Graphics Arts lab. The Adults had polo shirts while the students had T-shirts. We even made two different colored shirts for EACH member, so the team wore different colors on different competition days! Worked GREAT.

Our trading item for the regionals (a "hand clapper") was a donation, and students used Sharpies to add our team number to them. There are MANY ways for a creative team to mass produce cheap swap items for trade. Get an Art Teacher involved. THEY'll know what to do!

General Advice:

1) Make SURE you THANK your sponsors at the end of year. A party is only one good way to do it.

2) There are a LOT of grants out there. READ THEIR SUBMISSION RULES. It tells you a LOT about HOW to approach them, and WHEN to submit the application.

Example: MOST grants do NOT wish to pay for "fees", but WILL pay for "educational materials". So, in that case you wouldn't say "your money will pay a contest fee where by the way we're sending a bunch of kids to Houston to Party". Instead, your application should talk about how "your $5000 grant will be used to purchase a reusable Robot Parts Kit, and Educational CAD, Animation, & Office Software to assist teaching our students about robotics and project management". (You keep the kits, and they can be used for classes... Got it? )

If you have other questions, feel free to ask!

- Keith

[dixonij]

MAJOR PROPS to the first obsessed man above... (not like thats a bad thing...) he really knows his stuff. print out that post and save it. it could be real useful.

[Norm M.]

Don't become despondent when you see the kinds of budgets that some of the teams are working with. While it would be interesting to have a $40K budget, you can build a competitve robot on a $10K budget. $10K will get you to your regional. The budget for additional venues adds up fast. First year, one regional is probably enough (besides, you probably can't get into a second one now that is within 800 miles...)

First year out, the St. Louis Regional will be a real eye opener for what assorted teams can do with FIRST. You will see some of the farm kids show up with steel robots that were welded together from junk yard parts. You will also see some of the professional teams show up with chartered buses, CNC machined, 100 member teams. In the end, it is a blast!

Many of the responses had wisdom beyond my knowledge. Set your goals in a progressive manner. First goal should be a simple base that can manuever. Don't fall into the trap of trying to do everything, and then finding yourself having to build this magnificent design in the last 10 days.

Also- I believe St.Louis has a kickoff meeting (I think some of our folks are going there) where you will be able to meet a lot of people. You should also be able to take your kit of parts home with you. Make sure you have someone tape the kickoff program so it can be shared with people who can't view it live. It will probably be on the NASA channel (we taped it off our DISH-TV system last year).

[Kevin Sevcik]

One thing that you definitely need to start doing right away is looking for additional sponsors. Regardless of how much money you need to compete this year, which others have covered more than adequately, you'll need that much or more next year. I haven't noticed anyone else mention this, but the 6K or 7k NASA grants are a one or two year thing intended to get more rookie teams started up. All too often, these teams fail to fundraise enough new money in following years, and the just vanish.

So, no time like the present to start fundraising. Look for big businesses in your area, and send them a letter asking for funding. I know there's a couple floating around the forums. If you get a couple that are interested, make sure to invite them to your regional, if it's close enough for them to attend. And be sure to get some team members running around with still cameras and video cameras. Nothing makes for better recruitment material than showing people what you guys do.