What makes FRC a sport?

[Chris is me]

It's a competitive game. While it should be treated like a sport, sports are simple competitive games that rely on pushing humans to their physical limits instead of mental limits. FIRST games are complex and rely on design and intellectual capability much more than the average sport.

[Brandon Holley]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

It's a competitive game. While it should be treated like a sport, sports are simple competitive games that rely on pushing humans to their physical limits instead of mental limits. FIRST games are complex and rely on design and intellectual capability much more than the average sport.

I get the the point you are trying to make, but I don't fully agree with it. Some sports are extremely physically oriented, and require very little intellect. However, other sports require quite a bit of intellect to really excel. Obviously, the physical portion tends to come first, but there tends to be quite a bit of intellectual challenge when you get to the level where everyone you are playing is of the same physical stature.

-Brando

[SenorZ]

If there is a game, and you sweat, it's a sport.

I know I sweated A LOT last season!

[AdamHeard]

Does it matter if it is or is not considered a sport?

[PAR_WIG1350]

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Does it matter if it is or is not considered a sport?

No, but the title of the thread doesn't seem to ask if it is or not. I believe one is to assume that it is and list reasons why it is, or, in other words, what similarities exist between FIRST and (other) sports.

[Duke461]

The problem with this question is that there are many different definitions of sport. Older definitions consider a sport to be a "game involving physical excercise". Others define it as a "Physical activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively". Neither of these definitions support robotics, due to its lack of physical activity. Yes, it has SOME physical exertion, lifting a robot, using the shear, etc., but in no way is this elongated and physically challenging in a way that it can't be accomplished successfully by most people. In addition to this, there is no human physical exertion whatsoever DURING the match (maybe minus the human player). Thus, by these definitions, robotics is not a sport.

However, there are looser definitons, ones that basically state a sport is some kind of leisure activity. Obviously, robotics would fit into this. However, many other "sports" would then fit in to this which wouldn't be considered sports. Examples would include sewing competitions, poker, and sure, for kicks, we'll throw in underwater basket weaving . Through this, we can see that this is too loose of a definition, and thus, robotics should still not be considered a sport.

Third, my reference is Sports Law, a course at Cornell University. In their class overview, it states, "The concept of amateur sports includes a range of activities from an individual casual weekend athlete to high school athletics to extensively organized intercollegiate or international competitions. Athletic activities are often organized and managed by individual groups that establish rules for eligibility and competition, and courts are often unwilling to interfere with the actions of these groups as long as their rules are reasonably applied". The international competition part could be used to support FIRST and robotics, however, while not specifically stated, it still seems to be implying physical exertion, due to the previous clauses mentioning athletes.

Finally, while Wikipedia isnt the MOST trustworthy, their opening paragraph puts it nicely:

"A Sport is all forms of physical activity which, through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical fitness and provide entertainment to participants. Sport may be competitive, where a winner or winners can be identified by objective means, and may require a degree of skill, especially at higher levels. Hundreds of sports exist, including those for a single participant, through to those with hundreds of simultaneous participants, either in teams or competing as individuals. Some non-physical activities, such as board games and card games are sometimes referred to as sports, but a sport is generally recognised as being based in physical athleticism."

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To conclude, essentially all definitons of sport imply some kind of physical exertion, and i've shown that robotics does not have physical exertion DURING the competition. I suppose one could argue the 6 weeks is part of the competition; however, physical exertion is not consistent, repetitive, and/or uniform throughout the build team. Even the definitions that don't include physical exertion are simply too broad and would consider too many activitites that we dont consider to be a sport, a sport.

As much as i love robotics, and sports, robotics is NOT a sport.

-Duke

P.S. To Adam's question, i don't care too much. But, debates are fun, the OP wants to know, and im bored.

[staplemonx]

JJ's definition of a sport

team based = check

more that 2 players per side

physical contact between players = check
low to moderate level of scoring = check

(hockey and soccer low scoring, foot ball moderate, basketball high level of scoring)

players and coaches can get penalties = check
Play on the field is fluid = check
Requires skill, practice and luck to win = check

PS i do not think that baseball is a sport. no penalties and not fluid. Tennis is not a sport, no physical contact. Cross country not a sport, no scoring just measurements (time, distance, etc).

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by staplemonx

JJ's definition of a sport

You're the only one that defines sport like this.

Originally Posted by AdamHeard

Does it matter if it is or is not considered a sport?

It doesn't especially matter to me personally, but we have to consider what other people think about it. For instance, it might matter whether or not it qualifies as a sport according to a school's funding criteria or extracurricular activity policy.

[Basel A]

I would personally argue FRC is not a sport because the primary objective of a sports competition is either (a) entertainment or (b) to see who is best at the sport. The goal of FRC is neither. We do FRC to inspire and to be inspired.

Sports are self-absorbed and have no meaning outside themselves. FRC has greater aspirations and influences.

[mathking]

Originally Posted by staplemonx

JJ's definition of a sport

Cross country not a sport, no scoring just measurements (time, distance, etc).

Cross country is scored, not measured, to determine the winner.

[staplemonx]

Here are a few more items that can be used in this discussion

http://www.atomicrobotics.com/2011/08/considered-sport/

http://www.atomicrobotics.com/2011/10/cost-kid/

http://www.atomicrobotics.com/2011/0...orting-events/

[Laaba 80]

Originally Posted by staplemonx

PS i do not think that baseball is a sport. no penalties and not fluid.

I completely disagree, baseball is no less fluid than football. While baseball doesnt explicitly call things "penalties" it has its fair share. Hitting a batter with a pitch is directly comparable to a kickoff going out of bounds in football, which is called a "penalty". Also, umpires can call a balk on a pitcher. You could even consider walking a batter a penalty.

Back on topic, this is mainly semantics, but I dont think that FRC is a sport, it is the organization behind the sport. I think that Logomotion, Breakaway, etc are all individual sports. This is like calling the NFL a sport, when the sport is actually football. I see no reason why an individual seasons game should not be considered a sport.

[PAR_WIG1350]

We are trying to find an absolute, "correct" definition of "sport", but in doing so we are dooming ourselves to failure. The concept of sports was fabricated by humans, and thus only exists in our own minds. the moniker "sport" carries false wight.

To say that something is a sport triggers certain responses in the brain. To make a reference to computers, "sport" is like a class. when something is declared to be a sport, it inherits some features from the "sport" class. Does every subclass or instance of sport need to use every feature? No, it doesn't. Furthermore, other objects and classes that are unrelated to the "sport" class can have the same features and functions as the sports class.

At a certain point, it simply becomes easier to make an object an instance of the "sport" class rather than creating a separate class. If the required features are included in the "sport" class already, it makes more sense to use the "sport" class since it avoids reinventing the proverbial wheel.

Our brains do much the same thing when we look at things in life. If something is called a sport, the brain will give it certain attributes associated with sports. Similarly, if something shares enough characteristics with a sport, the brain will associate it with sports.

This brings us neatly back to the beginning; a sport is simply as loose set of fabricated characteristics that is different from person to person which one can choose to apply to different activities as they see fit. Whether something is or isn't a sport has nothing to do with its value or the lessons it can teach. It is simply a tag we place on things to identify them more easily based on our personal idea of what that tag means. The correct answer is truly a personal matter.

[torihoelscher]

FRC is a sport because it uses your mind. Your mind is getting a workout, it doesnt entirely have to be a physical type of activity. Its strategy, thats what makes it a sport because without strategy in baseball, football, golf, cross country, and etc there would be no way to win the game. I think its a sport because like other sports you cheer and get adrenaline running through you and we do compete. Heck, when I write software my hands shake with adrenaline.

Robotics is a sport no if, ands, or buts about it.

[JamesCH95]

Whoever thinks that FRC is not physically demanding has not done it before. There are few times I sleep so soundly as I do after an FRC build season and regional.

I imagine these are the same people who don't think racing (cars) is a sport. I've had to be pulled out a car by my teammates because I was so exhausted at the end of an endurance stint.

I say this being a collegiate athlete in soccer, volleyball, and ultimate frisbee, as well as an FRC driver and race car driver, and alpine ski racing in HS. All of these are sports in their own right, all are physically demanding (especially if you take them seriously), all are mentally demanding, all are highly competitive. All require a focused strategy, focus, control, creativity, and a dash of luck.

These are all sports in my opinion, having competed in them at highly demanding levels.