What makes FRC a sport?

[Laaba 80]

Originally Posted by JamesBrown

It is important to remember the differences between games and sports, in this case the lack of physical exertion is certainly one of them.

It is true that humans have no physical exertion during the game, but the robots are clearly physically exerting themselves. The robots are the athletes.

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by Laaba 80

It is true that humans have no physical exertion during the game, but the robots are clearly physically exerting themselves. The robots are the athletes.

Robots are not athletes. An athlete by definition is a person, our robots are equipment for playing a game, they are no closer to being athletes than a race car, a bike, or a pair of running shoes.

[Laaba 80]

Originally Posted by JamesBrown

Robots are not athletes. An athlete by definition is a person, our robots are equipment for playing a game, they are no closer to being athletes than a race car, a bike, or a pair of running shoes.

An athlete is a person by definition, but this definition was created far before robots were capable of being "athletes". In breakaway, the robot must move, possess the ball, shoot the ball, pass the ball, etc all on its own power. The same things a human soccer "athlete" must do. Race cars and bikes are both for the sole purpose of transporting the person in the sport, they dont also need to interact with a ball, or whatever other game piece. I guess we can agree to disagree.

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by Laaba 80

An athlete is a person by definition, but this definition was created far before robots were capable of being "athletes". In breakaway, the robot must move, possess the ball, shoot the ball, pass the ball, etc all on its own power. The same things a human soccer "athlete" must do. Race cars and bikes are both for the sole purpose of transporting the person in the sport, they dont also need to interact with a ball, or whatever other game piece. I guess we can agree to disagree.

Put an FRC robot on a field by itself, no human driving it, what will it do? Robots are still not capable of being athletes, the most sophisticated robots in the world are capable of playing games with varying degrees of success, FRC robots are not even capable of that. Without a human driver there were no robots in breakaway that could be considered athletes, they are really just machines. We are decades away from anything close to a machine that can reason and function well enough to force us to examine our definition of an athlete.

[Sconrad]

Originally Posted by JamesBrown

Put an FRC robot on a field by itself, no human driving it, what will it do? Robots are still not capable of being athletes, the most sophisticated robots in the world are capable of playing games with varying degrees of success, FRC robots are not even capable of that. Without a human driver there were no robots in breakaway that could be considered athletes, they are really just machines. We are decades away from anything close to a machine that can reason and function well enough to force us to examine our definition of an athlete.

Umm, that sounds an awful lot like autonomous...

Yes, I realize that a 15 second autonomous is far from complete artificial intelligence. That aside, I tend to agree with you that the robots are not athletes. Also, I'm not sure I see the point of arguing too much over whether or not FIRST is a sport, even on a financial level. I am a member of my school's marching band, and while we are not considered a sport, a lot of money goes into the program. It isn't close to the budget of the football team, but honestly, comparing a club's budget to a football team is never a good idea. If you compare the budget of a swimming team, which seems to fit all of the definitions of sports that have been posted so far, to a football team, the swimming team is going to come up way short almost without exception.

FIRST markets itself as a sport because many concepts often associated with sports, lots of extracurricular hours, exciting spectator events, and the development of talents within the athlete/student, to list a couple, are part of FIRST. Currently, most people categorize extracurricular activities as clubs or sports. To call FIRST a club does it a gross injustice, as the vast majority of clubs fail to provide the excitement and motivation that FIRST provides. While FIRST is not necessarily the epitome of a sport, sport is definitely a better classification of FIRST than club. In reality, FIRST falls into an interesting niche that cannot really be classified definitively as a sport or as a club. IMHO, this has a lot to do with the fact that FIRST seeks to emulate and expose students to the professional world, using the excitement of a sporting event as a cover for this purpose.

As a side note, I think you guys are focusing way too much on student drivers. The position of student driver is rarely held by anywhere close to the majority of students on the team. I don't think I saw any posts mentioning either the scouting or the spectator aspect. While these are not part of most dictionary definitions, they are a key part of the connotation of what is a sport.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Laaba 80

It is true that humans have no physical exertion during the game, but the robots are clearly physically exerting themselves. The robots are the athletes.

I think that people are exerting energy during a match. Pushing a joystick or a button requires a force applied over a distance (energy) and therefore the driver is physically exerting energy. It may not be much, but it is greater than zero.

[Chris is me]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

I think that people are exerting energy during a match. Pushing a joystick or a button requires a force applied over a distance (energy) and therefore the driver is physically exerting energy. It may not be much, but it is greater than zero.

That defines any game as a sport. Is there no distinction? I thought sport was a subset of game.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Chris is me

That defines any game as a sport. Is there no distinction? I thought sport was a subset of game.

Hehe... you're right.

On the subject: a local high school awards varsity letters to the debate team. By their definition thinking and talking is a sport.

Where is the line drawn? Or is this is really a "I know it when I see it" definition?

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

Hehe... you're right.

On the subject: a local high school awards varsity letters to the debate team. By their definition thinking and talking is a sport.

Where is the line drawn? Or is this is really a "I know it when I see it" definition?

There are also schools that award letters for Robotics.

There is nothing that says Varsity letters must be given to sports teams. Varsity recognition is commonly given to the top team as an acknowledgement that they are the ones who officially represent that school in competition. Most commonly this looks at sports but certainly the definition could be extended to any athletic or academic team.

Just because someone (or some group) thinks it is a sport doesn't mean it is a sport (Fallacy of Appeal to Authority as your varsity debaters would tell you). I would be willing to bet that whoever wrote the justification to give Varsity letters to those students didn't use the arguement "It is a sport because talking, gesturing and writing all expend energy, therefore there is physical exertion, therefore it is a sport".

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by JamesBrown

There are also schools that award letters for Robotics.

There is nothing that says Varsity letters must be given to sports teams. Varsity recognition is commonly given to the top team as an acknowledgement that they are the ones who officially represent that school in competition. Most commonly this looks at sports but certainly the definition could be extended to any athletic or academic team.

Just because someone (or some group) thinks it is a sport doesn't mean it is a sport (Fallacy of Appeal to Authority as your varsity debaters would tell you). I would be willing to bet that whoever wrote the justification to give Varsity letters to those students didn't use the arguement "It is a sport because talking, gesturing and writing all expend energy, therefore there is physical exertion, therefore it is a sport".

Now who's lawyering...

I'm kidding, don't worry.

I looked up the definition of a varsity letter, and it is awarded for excellence in school activities. My assumption that it was awarded to sports teams was incorrect.

I like your terms "athletic team" and "academic team." Do only athletic teams participate in sports or can academic teams participate in sports? Can there be some overlap? Maybe we need a Venn diagram...

I like mathking's example of precision shooting. I assume there is no significant stamina or endurance required, but it is considered an Olympic sport. FRC demands fine motor control and precise machine operation similar to shooting that other games do not (I'm looking at you Chris_is_me). Does the demand of good hand-eye coordination and fine motor skill qualify FRC as a sport? Does the fact that this machine exists in reality, rather than virtually (I'm thinking of video games here) make it a sport?

[JamesBrown]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

I think that people are exerting energy during a match. Pushing a joystick or a button requires a force applied over a distance (energy) and therefore the driver is physically exerting energy. It may not be much, but it is greater than zero.

Seriously, I figured we had until january before we started lawyering things again.