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Unread 07-12-2011, 12:58
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

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Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
You're aware that RSLogix5000 can use other programming methods, including structured text, right? And I'm curious as to why you'd want FIRST to keep a software package used frequently in industry away from teams, especially if your basis is simply because it uses ladder logic. It's not as if function block programming, as many teams use in LabView, is any better.
For all but the simplest tasks, ladder logic is pretty convincingly inferior to other types of programming that are possible on modern PLCs or computers running RTOSs; even for the simplest tasks, it's not universally better. I was going by Chris Elston's post referring to the fact that ladder logic is used on this hardware. If it does support other things, then that's excellent. If the behaviour of the hardware is identical using various programming methods, then that's even better. (So that implementing something in ladder logic wouldn't be necessary to achieving results equivalent to the competition setup. I doubt this is true, though, because most compilers for functional languages optimize automatically, which I have not known to be true for ladder logic—probably by design. Without having seen the application, I don't know if these differences will matter in the slightest.)

Incidentally, being frequently used in industry is not a sufficient reason to encourage teams to try something. Industry does lots of inefficient, uneconomical or otherwise illogical things because it has constraints that don't apply to teams or students learning engineering methods. Furthermore, assuming a finite amount of time to learn industrial techniques, it's not necessarily a good idea to split efforts between platforms.
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Unread 07-12-2011, 13:29
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

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Originally Posted by Tristan Lall View Post
For all but the simplest tasks, ladder logic is pretty convincingly inferior
I think we're looking at this all wrong........ if ladder logic is so outdated, why include it in the hint? Maybe that's the name of the game "Ladder Logic".... The endgame involves no stairs, no ramps.......it's ladders!:
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Unread 07-12-2011, 13:43
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

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Originally Posted by HumblePie View Post
I think we're looking at this all wrong........ if ladder logic is so outdated, why include it in the hint? Maybe that's the name of the game "Ladder Logic".... The endgame involves no stairs, no ramps.......it's ladders!:
They won't use that name. That's 1998's game. The very last game of the B.A. era, in fact.

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Unread 07-12-2011, 14:02
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

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Originally Posted by HumblePie View Post
On a slightly unrelated note, there has been a lot of speculation re: the return of minibots. Why not apply the "miniaturization" principle to the grown-up bot? The 38 x 28 footprint has been somewhat sacred lately, and it's possible that the GDC had issues with so many chassis designs being "recirculated" from Rack 'n Roll last year. The new CRio is smaller, why not the robots? A smaller footprint would force many teams to rethink their entire packaging scheme.
Keep in mind that Rack 'n Roll had different bumper rules than we enjoy today - specifically, you were not required to have bumpers around the entire robot. In fact, standard bumpers weren't even required at all - they were optional! As a result, many teams ended up with a chassis design that allowed a gap in the front which made tube mechanisms easier and more protected (as some of the mechanism would be recessed within the frame, with only the rollers sticking out).

The cRio is smaller, but the overall footprint required for the electronics is larger than it was with the old IFI system - Jaguars are larger than Victors, the PDB is larger than the distribution board we used to use, the cRio (even the new one) is significantly larger (in 3 dimensions) than the old robot controller - plus you have to have a digital sidecar attached, which increases the footprint even more.

With the KitBot chassis, I don't think the GDC is worried about recirculated chassis designs - We've used the exact same chassis (the KitBot) 4/5 years our team's been around!
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Unread 07-12-2011, 14:08
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristan Lall View Post
For all but the simplest tasks, ladder logic is pretty convincingly inferior to other types of programming that are possible on modern PLCs or computers running RTOSs; even for the simplest tasks, it's not universally better. I was going by Chris Elston's post referring to the fact that ladder logic is used on this hardware. If it does support other things, then that's excellent. If the behaviour of the hardware is identical using various programming methods, then that's even better. (So that implementing something in ladder logic wouldn't be necessary to achieving results equivalent to the competition setup. I doubt this is true, though, because most compilers for functional languages optimize automatically, which I have not known to be true for ladder logic—probably by design. Without having seen the application, I don't know if these differences will matter in the slightest.)

Incidentally, being frequently used in industry is not a sufficient reason to encourage teams to try something. Industry does lots of inefficient, uneconomical or otherwise illogical things because it has constraints that don't apply to teams or students learning engineering methods. Furthermore, assuming a finite amount of time to learn industrial techniques, it's not necessarily a good idea to split efforts between platforms.
I apologize if I missed the PLC on the parts list, but all I saw was RS Logix 5000, which is a software package. Not hardware.
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Unread 07-12-2011, 14:19
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

Sorry for joining in late...

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Originally Posted by thefro526 View Post
Not that I'm debating your point, but there is some logic behind connecting AM's new Pneumatic wheel to the 2012 Game.

In 2009, when everyone was forced to use the same wheel, AM built a custom wheel and was the sole supplier for it.

That being said, there has been a market in FRC for Pneumatic wheels since the pre-alliance days. Coming out with a pre-hubbed easy to use Pneumatic Wheel is just good business.
Dustin, I KNOW you heard the discussion in our cast a couple weeks back about the 2009 wheels. I'm pretty sure he outlined exactly what happened there. http://ewcp.org/blog/2011/11/13/insi...lier-andymark/

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Originally Posted by LedLover96 View Post
Maybe the endgame could be throwing minibots into some mayan sacrifice fire to prevent the world from ending. Then we ccould rid the world of the minibot problem once and for all!
I like where this is going...

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And the bumper rules...
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Unread 07-12-2011, 14:31
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

The Rockwell stuff is probably used for the field. Although ladder logic and such may not be cutting edge technology, it is very reliable and is used extensively in factory automation. The sensors do indicate that there will be some sort of flying object to be counted (I'm so happy). I wonder if they will finally use footballs. For years Dean has mentioned that FIRST is modeled after professional sports, and he sometimes references the NFL. A football throwing game would be both a challenge and a blast to play. Poof balls would be safe, but I do remember shredding several of them during Aim High. All of our practice balls ended up looking like asteroids.

Something to keep in mind though... the game design committee went through some pretty dramatic changes last year. This game could be like nothing we've seen. I just hope it can come close to the awesomeness we have seen in the past.
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Unread 07-12-2011, 14:46
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
I apologize if I missed the PLC on the parts list, but all I saw was RS Logix 5000, which is a software package. Not hardware.
I was assuming that the only application for RS Logix was to program PLC hardware (comparable stuff is used for PCs running RTOSs). However, I don't know with certainty whether that is correct. True, they don't appear to be getting any PLCs for free from Rockwell.
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Unread 07-12-2011, 15:46
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

Quote:
Originally Posted by HumblePie View Post
On a slightly unrelated note, there has been a lot of speculation re: the return of minibots. Why not apply the "miniaturization" principle to the grown-up bot? The 38 x 28 footprint has been somewhat sacred lately, and it's possible that the GDC had issues with so many chassis designs being "recirculated" from Rack 'n Roll last year. The new CRio is smaller, why not the robots? A smaller footprint would force many teams to rethink their entire packaging scheme.
I like the sound of this, too. Perhaps they will set up something where a normal-sized robot will do fine, so new teams don't have to make the big adjustment, but also add a tunnel or a zone of some sort that is only navigable by a smaller robot - an elfbot, maybe?
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Unread 07-12-2011, 16:57
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

Endgame: Minibots must climb up a ladder without touching the side rails...
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Unread 07-12-2011, 18:42
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

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Originally Posted by pfreivald View Post
Endgame: Minibots must climb up a ladder without touching the side rails...
That's an interesting challenge. I can think of a few ways to do it, but I can't help but hate that everyone will have the exact same minibot by Nats.
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Unread 07-12-2011, 18:58
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

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Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
Something to keep in mind though... the game design committee went through some pretty dramatic changes last year. This game could be like nothing we've seen. I just hope it can come close to the awesomeness we have seen in the past.
True. While I do like the old GDC, I'd like to see what new innovations and ideas come up. Or, if you're not as optimistic, see what horrible things may occur. You know the horrible thoughts for game designs you've had before. People's minds can be scary places where lane violations are in every match, and all minibots look the same. *shiver
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Unread 07-12-2011, 20:29
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

Hmm... Extra thought, we've all been looking at this 1 way (how will each part be used?).
Anyone looking into What is NOT on the list? (what isn't on it that was in Aim High/Breakaway?)
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Unread 07-12-2011, 20:38
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

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Originally Posted by DavisC View Post
Hmm... Extra thought, we've all been looking at this 1 way (how will each part be used?).
Anyone looking into What is NOT on the list? (what isn't on it that was in Aim High/Breakaway?)
One slight problem, but your suggestion is still workable. There are thousands of possible parts that could be used, and that's just coming from Rockwell...
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Unread 07-12-2011, 20:55
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Re: First Official 2012 Game Hint

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One slight problem, but your suggestion is still workable. There are thousands of possible parts that could be used, and that's just coming from Rockwell...
I think what he means is we can look at the previous games, and rule out objects/ideas that need pieces not in the new list.

For example, if we were playing a remade version of Triple Play, and had the field parts list, and didn't see the pressure plates, we could see that the pressure pads used for human loading wouldn't be in the new game, thereby eliminating that from the equation.

Still not an accurate thing to do, but it does something, I guess.
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