WCD vs. Swerve

[AlecMataloni]

Originally Posted by EricH

111 (2003 National Champions). 118, back around 2005-2007, had a few solid ones. 1717 hasn't won a championship division yet, but they have a pretty potent swerve.

Wasn't 67 a swerve in 2005?

Also, we were swerve in '09 as well.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by AlecMataloni

Wasn't 67 a swerve in 2005?

Also, we were swerve in '09 as well.

I can never remember for sure if 67 was a swerve or omni in '05. I'm pretty sure they had a 3-wheel swerve, though.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by EricH

I can never remember for sure if 67 was a swerve or omni in '05. I'm pretty sure they had a 3-wheel swerve, though.

Swerve for sure.

[Chexposito]

my point is that they are the only team that consistently uses it and seems to have come close to, if not perfected it.

Originally Posted by Chexposito

my point is that they are the only team that consistently uses it and seems to have come close to, if not perfected it.

I wouldn't say they've perfected it, but 973's swerve is one of the best swerves I've seen in my days, and I've seen a lot of swerves.

[AlecMataloni]

Originally Posted by Chexposito

my point is that they are the only team that consistently uses it and seems to have come close to, if not perfected it.

Well then, I respectfully disagree.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Chexposito

my point is that they are the only team that consistently uses it and seems to have come close to, if not perfected it.

No, they aren't.

111. 1 National Championship on swerve drive. Uses it fairly often when the game calls for it.
118. 2-3 years with what was then one of the ultimate swerve drives.
67. 1 World Championship on swerve drive.
148. See 67.
1717. Consistently uses swerve.

973 developed a Unicorn drive (Emperor Swerve) this offseason that could rival some of these others. They have yet to use it in the regular season.

16 is NOT the only team that has come close to perfecting swerve, or that consistently uses it. While they do consistently use a very good one, saying that they are the only one displays ignorance. Continuing to say that they are the only one after other teams in the same category have been brought to one's attention displays willful ignorance.

Use of swerve without proper engineering analysis to determine that it is the best option, or close to it, is a very risky proposition at best, and a waste of resources at worst.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by EricH

No, they aren't.

111. 1 National Championship on swerve drive. Uses it fairly often when the game calls for it.
118. 2-3 years with what was then one of the ultimate swerve drives.
67. 1 World Championship on swerve drive.
148. See 67.
1717. Consistently uses swerve.

973 developed a Unicorn drive (Emperor Swerve) this offseason that could rival some of these others. They have yet to use it in the regular season.

16 is NOT the only team that has come close to perfecting swerve, or that consistently uses it. While they do consistently use a very good one, saying that they are the only one displays ignorance. Continuing to say that they are the only one after other teams in the same category have been brought to one's attention displays willful ignorance.

Use of swerve without proper engineering analysis to determine that it is the best option, or close to it, is a very risky proposition at best, and a waste of resources at worst.

You forgot a pretty major team that has used swerve quite a few times since their latest World Championship (my gut says every year). Though they haven't been quite the BEAST they have been in the past they still beatty out most teams for always managing to find a way to win. I speak of course of Team Hammond for those of you who hadn't figured it out.

Also, 469 used swerve for a couple years (07/08) with reasonable success.

[MichaelBick]

If you look at videos of 1717, you will see how smooth and perfected their drivetrain has become. They consistently use it, and it shows, how while not being necessary, swerve helps so much in scoring. Of course, this relies on the fact that swerve is built and programmed right.

[Cory]

111 is swerve as far as I'm concerned.

I don't mean that as a sleight to 16, 47, 118, etc. If I think of swerve I think of 111 and then everyone else.

[Aren_Hill]

A lot of people posting without first hand knowledge, that's fun.

Adam and 973 are in the best position to answer the original question, as they've had quite a few 6wd cantilevered drivetrains and have recently given swerve a try.

My recommendations is know what you're getting into, easiest way to do that is have a fully functional prototype you can drive the wheels off of. I agree with Adam that the programming/control aspect is what makes a swerve great, I've seen many swerves (ours included), with control not quite what it should've been. As a result many of the Pro's were diminished and the effectiveness brought below that of a normal 6wd or 8wd in some cases.

[Garrett.d.w]

Last year the Pigmice built a swerve drive (but like idiots we didn't prototype it in the offseason). Everything that we did worked, and we had no issues until it came to driving.
Because we hadn't prototyped it in the off season no one had ever driven it extensively. We wound up modifying it in the pits to drive like a tank (two sets of omni wheels in the front pods). This made the robot easy to drive, and because the swerve cababilities were left intact, we had fun watching people's faces when we could simply strafe around them.

Moral of the story, don't build it if you don't know how to use it to it's full potential. Our scoring during regionals would have been nearly identical if we had gone WCD.

Oh, and its cool, but very rarely necessary. If you have the time and the money, try it, but drive it into the ground in the off season before you decide to compete with it.

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by Aren_Hill

A lot of people posting without first hand knowledge, that's fun.

Adam and 973 are in the best position to answer the original question, as they've had quite a few 6wd cantilevered drivetrains and have recently given swerve a try.

Excellent point.

Listen to the the EWCP podcast from November 27th where they discuss in depth what 973 went through and thought of when they built their swerve and their experience driving both. It's fun to hear people discuss their first hand account.

Now to my opinion: If you don't have a drivable fully working swerve built in the offseason (offseason is really over so I mean today) you will probably not be ready this season. If you can't drive you can't do anything. The time it will take to get the drive up and running in the build season will submarine most of the stuff you're working on. In my experience when driving is a forgone conclusion you can focus better on accomplishing the game task, scoring points. I use the kit bot as an example of this. Prior to the 2005 intro of the 1st kitbot you were very lucky if your partners could drive during quals sometimes and fewer teams could accomplish difficult tasks because the whole build season was spent getting the ability to drive. End opinion.

[Gdeaver]

1640 has done 4 wheel independent drive, independent steering the last two years. We have the weight of each module down to 9 LBS. We have the durability nailed too. Greater that 100 hours on both bots. We have put an enormous amount of time, effort and money into swerve drive. Most teams may be stressed beyond their limits to perfect a swerve drive. With swerve you basically have to have every thing perfect or things will go very bad. The risk of failure with taking on swerve would lead me to recommend that most teams forget swerve and work on perfecting a 6 wheel drive base and focus more time on other aspects of the robot. We still do not have the swerve where we want it. We need to work on the driver presentation. I will say that with this years swerve and a trained driver, swerve can be a real competitive advantage. Is it worth the effort and money. We debate this issue constantly. If you don't have a functioning swerve drive base right now then it's a no brainer, do a 6 wheel for 2012.

[Ether]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

We still do not have the swerve where we want it. We need to work on the driver presentation

What is it about the driver interface that you need to work on?