Go to Post I always get a little stressed as arm operator, especially with Paul Copioli standing behind me screaming at me. - JohnnyB [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-01-2012, 19:05
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Joining the 900 Meme Team
FRC #0079
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Misplaced Michigander
Posts: 4,074
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Encrypted morally grey

Never said it was impossible just said to try it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karibou View Post
Challenge accepted: "According to you, I don't know how to do this," and "My brain hurts now."


And now, back to your regularly scheduled topic of discussion...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duke461 View Post
This is an unusual paragraph. I'm curious how quickly you can find out what is so unusual about it. It looks so plain you would think nothing was wrong with it. In fact, nothing is wrong with it! It is unusual though. Study it, and think about it, but you still may not find anything odd. But if you work at it a bit, you might find out! Try to do so without any coaching! You probably won't, at first, find anything particularly odd or unusual or in any way dissimilar to any ordinary composition. That is not at all surprising, for it is no strain to accomplish in so short a paragraph a stunt similar to that which an author did throughout all of his book, without spoiling a good writing job, and it was no small book at that. By studying this paragraph assiduously, you will shortly, I trust, know what is its distinguishing oddity. Upon locating that "mark of distinction," you will probably doubt my story of this author and his book of similar unusuality throughout. It is commonly known among book-conscious folk and proof of it is still around. If you must know, this sort of writing is known as a lipogram, but don't look up that word in any dictionary until you find out what this is all about.



Also, this
__________________




.
  #32   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-01-2012, 19:07
Duke461's Avatar
Duke461 Duke461 is offline
Boiler Strong.
AKA: Ben Carson
FRC #0461 (Westside Boiler Invasion)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: West Lafayette, Indiana
Posts: 864
Duke461 has a reputation beyond reputeDuke461 has a reputation beyond reputeDuke461 has a reputation beyond reputeDuke461 has a reputation beyond reputeDuke461 has a reputation beyond reputeDuke461 has a reputation beyond reputeDuke461 has a reputation beyond reputeDuke461 has a reputation beyond reputeDuke461 has a reputation beyond reputeDuke461 has a reputation beyond reputeDuke461 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Encrypted morally grey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
Never said it was impossible just said to try it.
I know, i just wanted to share how amazing Earnest Vincent Wright is
__________________

The opposite of excellence is good enough.
2012-2013 President; 2011-2012 Vice President
2011-offseason FRC Student Drive Coach; 2010-11, 2011-2012 VEX Drive Coach
2011, 2010-offseason FRC Driver/Operator
2012, 2011-offseason, 2010-offseason FRC Human Player
Find me on: Facebook, Gmail, Twitter, Tumblr, Blogger/Blogspot
  #33   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-01-2012, 21:46
davidthefat davidthefat is offline
Alumni
AKA: David Yoon
FRC #0589 (Falkons)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: California
Posts: 792
davidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud of
Re: Encrypted morally grey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
Surely, Don's playing on the fact that the most commonly used letter in the english language is 'e'. Go ahead, try to write a sentence or two (that make sense) without using 'e'.
Look, I suck at this... LOOK! No, I don't know what I am doing...
__________________
Do not say what can or cannot be done, but, instead, say what must be done for the task at hand must be accomplished.
  #34   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-01-2012, 21:49
davidthefat davidthefat is offline
Alumni
AKA: David Yoon
FRC #0589 (Falkons)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: California
Posts: 792
davidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud ofdavidthefat has much to be proud of
Re: Encrypted morally grey

In all seriousness. The password is encrypted with MD5 encryption 50 times over and RC4 20 time over or something like that. I thought I had something going on, but it was a dead end.

The hashed passwords are all there in the PDF, and the knowledge of encrypting and decrypting are published by Adobe themselves. They literally give you step by step instructions (so that 3rd party developers can make PDF readers) The catch is that MD5 encryption cannot be reversed. The way they check if the password is correct is by encrypting the password inputted by the user and checking that against the hashed password in the PDF file.
__________________
Do not say what can or cannot be done, but, instead, say what must be done for the task at hand must be accomplished.
  #35   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-01-2012, 22:17
Sean Raia's Avatar
Sean Raia Sean Raia is offline
Curious spectator & alumn
no team
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: PA
Posts: 436
Sean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Encrypted morally grey

A discussion on if its possible to crack the manuals encryption in 4 days? Of course it is, but its not probable at all. Someone with a great amount of processing power behind them and a modified dictionary attack has a small chance of getting it IMO

Summary of my post: AES may be great but FIRSTs passwords arent exactly obscure from a technical standpoint.

Last edited by Sean Raia : 05-01-2012 at 22:24.
  #36   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-01-2012, 22:37
avanboekel's Avatar
avanboekel avanboekel is offline
Registered User
AKA: Adam Van Boekel
FRC #5934 (Gear it Forward, Crowbotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Oswego, IL
Posts: 372
avanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant future
Re: Encrypted morally grey

My dad works at fermilab, and I had him brute force decrypt the game manual with one of their supercomputers. It took about 5 hours. It is '@just*wait%till#kickoff&!' with out the ' '.
__________________


2338 Gear It Forward | Student 2010-2013 | Mentor 2014-Present | oswegofirst.org
2013 Wisconsin Regional Winner (1732, 111, 2338)
2013 Midwest Regional Dean's List Finalist
2015 Midwest Regional Chairman's Award Winner
2015 Archimedes Subdivision Winner (1023, 2338, 3996, 1089)
2016 Midwest Regional Chairman's Award Winner
4096 CTRL-Z | Mentor 2014 | team4096.org
5934 Crowbotics | Mentor 2016-Present | crowbotics.org
  #37   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-01-2012, 23:06
Ernst's Avatar
Ernst Ernst is offline
Ernst
AKA: Ernst
FRC #1732 (Hilltoppers)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 297
Ernst has a reputation beyond reputeErnst has a reputation beyond reputeErnst has a reputation beyond reputeErnst has a reputation beyond reputeErnst has a reputation beyond reputeErnst has a reputation beyond reputeErnst has a reputation beyond reputeErnst has a reputation beyond reputeErnst has a reputation beyond reputeErnst has a reputation beyond reputeErnst has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Encrypted morally grey

Quote:
Originally Posted by avanboekel View Post
My dad works at fermilab, and I had him brute force decrypt the game manual with one of their supercomputers. It took about 5 hours. It is '@just*wait%till#kickoff&!' with out the ' '.
Do you know how many people just checked that code?

At least one.


Anyways, back to the original question, of whether FIRST said or even implied that it was in any way ok to crack, or even try to crack, the encrypted game manual, I think I may have an answer. The purpose of the encrypted game manual is so that their servers don't get overwhelmed immediately after/during KickOff. The purpose is not to challenge us to see who has the best computer, or access to the best computer. They don't want us to crack it.

Tl;dr: It's not a moral gray area. It's not ok.
  #38   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-01-2012, 23:12
avanboekel's Avatar
avanboekel avanboekel is offline
Registered User
AKA: Adam Van Boekel
FRC #5934 (Gear it Forward, Crowbotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Oswego, IL
Posts: 372
avanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant futureavanboekel has a brilliant future
Re: Encrypted morally grey

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZehP View Post
The purpose of the encrypted game manual is so that their servers don't get overwhelmed immediately after/during KickOff. The purpose is not to challenge us to see who has the best computer, or access to the best computer. They don't want us to crack it.

Tl;dr: It's not a moral gray area. It's not ok.
Exactly- great point.
__________________


2338 Gear It Forward | Student 2010-2013 | Mentor 2014-Present | oswegofirst.org
2013 Wisconsin Regional Winner (1732, 111, 2338)
2013 Midwest Regional Dean's List Finalist
2015 Midwest Regional Chairman's Award Winner
2015 Archimedes Subdivision Winner (1023, 2338, 3996, 1089)
2016 Midwest Regional Chairman's Award Winner
4096 CTRL-Z | Mentor 2014 | team4096.org
5934 Crowbotics | Mentor 2016-Present | crowbotics.org
  #39   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2012, 08:10
Jared Russell's Avatar
Jared Russell Jared Russell is offline
Taking a year (mostly) off
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs), FRC #0341 (Miss Daisy)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,080
Jared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Encrypted morally grey

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Raia View Post
Summary of my post: AES may be great but FIRSTs passwords arent exactly obscure from a technical standpoint.
Absolutely they are. There is a ton of entropy in the passwords we have been seeing in the past several seasons.

Last year: 5Time4for3robots2to1dance!

That is an EXTREMELY secure password by just about any measure. See: http://xkcd.com/936/
  #40   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2012, 08:56
JesseK's Avatar
JesseK JesseK is offline
Expert Flybot Crasher
FRC #1885 (ILITE)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Reston, VA
Posts: 3,712
JesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Encrypted morally grey

Any public successful attempts to crack this year's encryption will simply make life more of a p.i.t.a. next year for us. Please don't do it. The school's computers are god-awful slow and would probably go up in flames if they had to decrypt 80 pages of 256-bit AES.

Besides, I doubt cracking it a day before kickoff would win anyone a championship.
__________________

Drive Coach, 1885 (2007-present)
CAD Library Updated 5/1/16 - 2016 Curie/Carver Industrial Design Winner
GitHub
  #41   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2012, 09:44
Andrew Lawrence
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Encrypted morally grey

To end this discussion: It's not grey, it's black and white. The same protection used by NASA is used here, so it would be like hacking into NASA. It's not right, and would give you an unfair advantage over the other teams. It goes against the rules of gracious professionalism and the values of FIRST, and therefore should not be done.
  #42   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2012, 09:49
Taylor's Avatar
Taylor Taylor is offline
Professor of Thinkology, ThD
AKA: @taylorstem
FRC #3487 (Red Pride Robotics)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA 46227
Posts: 4,604
Taylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Encrypted morally grey

There has been some discussion on this thread about the discussion on the thread being against forum rules (threadception?). Yes, the topic being discussed is of an unethical nature, but to be clear, nothing was said about the actual act itself (i.e. hey, if you wanna crack the password, here's how to do it); simply a discussion of the ethical consequences. My interpretation of the OP is suggesting a discussion of cracking the code just to see if it can be done, not to gain a competitive advantage or even read the contents of the manual. No moderators have felt the need to jump in; this to me is a great example of the beauty of Chief Delphi. We can discuss ethical implications of many issues in an academic way, be free with our thoughts, without fear of repercussions.
Hooray for Chief Delphi.
__________________
Hi!
  #43   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2012, 19:55
LMD3130 LMD3130 is offline
Team Captain
AKA: Liam Driscoll
FRC #3130 (ERRORs)
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 28
LMD3130 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Encrypted morally grey

This needs to stop coming up on ChiefDelphi this is a very taboo subject, FIRST focuses on gracious professionalism and it's not that gracious to other teams to cheat towards and early start nor is it a professional move to give your self such an advantage that others do not have.
  #44   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2012, 20:14
Karibou Karibou is offline
Steel is love. Steel is life.
AKA: Kara Bakowski
FRC #0341 (Miss Daisy)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Conshohocken, PA
Posts: 1,854
Karibou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Karibou
Re: Encrypted morally grey

Quote:
Originally Posted by LMD3130 View Post
This needs to stop coming up on ChiefDelphi this is a very taboo subject, FIRST focuses on gracious professionalism and it's not that gracious to other teams to cheat towards and early start nor is it a professional move to give your self such an advantage that others do not have.
I don't think that any of us disagree with you when you say that trying to crack the manual before kickoff is not in the spirit of Gracious Professionalism. I do wish that the subject had never been breached at all for that reason, but now that it's happened, I'm glad to see the positive discussion that has stemmed from it (about why it is impossible to crack the code in a timeframe that would benefit the hacker).
__________________
Kara Bakowski
Michigan Technological University///Materials Science and Engineering '15///Go Huskies! #tenacity
kabakowski(at)gmail(dot)com
FRC 341 (2016-present): Mechanical/build mentor
Volunteer (2010-present): MAR Seneca '17, FTC Hat Tricks Qualifier '16, Brunswick Eruption '16, MAR Montgomery '16, MAR Westtown '16 Portcullis Victim, MAR Springside-Chestnut Hill '16, Ramp Riot '15 '16, FiM Escanaba District '14 '15, MidKnight Mayhem '13 '15 '16, FiM Detroit District '13, IRI '10 '12, FiM Waterford District '11 '12, MARC '12, CMP Galileo '11
FRC 1189 (2008-2011): Team Captain, Pit Crew, Website group leader, Team Education group leader, Proud Alum. We've got spirit, yes we do...


WMWBS '10 '11
  #45   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-01-2012, 20:23
theprgramerdude theprgramerdude is offline
WPI Freshman
AKA: Alex
FRC #2503 (Warrior Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Brainerd, Minnesota
Posts: 347
theprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud oftheprgramerdude has much to be proud of
Re: Encrypted morally grey

Honestly, I'll give $100 to anyone that can decrypt it before kickoff.

Has anyone ever heard of software security engineering? Like someone said, a day or two (If at all, ha, the odds of cracking it are so low) head start might be not be "graciously professional", but is everyone forgetting the reason why it'd be done in the first place? Hint: it's not to get a peak at the game manual.

Writing a program that attempts to crack the super-secure FIRST password is a great way to get a start in the field of making information secure, and learning how information may not be; learning for the sake of learning is a far better thing than treating knowledge as taboo because it might be 'controversial'.

Note: I'm aware that cracking the password simply because one wants to see the manual ahead of the broadcast is unethical because it's an unfair advantage in the competition, and that's not what I'm advocating.
__________________
Attending: MN Duluth Regional

Last edited by theprgramerdude : 06-01-2012 at 20:27.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:51.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi