Deciding which bridge to go for

[nighterfighter]

Originally Posted by KrazyCarl92

I disagree.

Case 1. Your suggestion:

Other alliance: 2 robots on their bridge. 20 points.
Our alliance: 2 robots on our bridge. 20 points.
No coopertition bonus.


Case 2. My suggestion:

Other alliance: 1 robot on their bridge, one on coopertition bridge. 10 points.
Our allaince: 1 robot on our bridge, one on coopertition bridge. 10 points.
2 Coopertition bonus points.

Either way it wouldn't affect the match outcome (win/loss), but ALL teams involved benefit from a coopertition bonus. This result is repeatable and consistent in all scenarios. Since the end all be all for ranking is the qualification score, Case 2 always comes out on top by this numerical analysis.

I think we have a misunderstanding...

In your scenario #2 there are 3 robots not on a bridge.

I am saying that you have 2 of your 3 alliance robots go for YOUR bridge to get 20 points. Then make your 3rd one go for the coopertition.

[Bill_B]

What percentage of robots will have the ability to climb on a bridge? As noted elsewhere, the bridges will not stay tilted for access by themselves. This means if you intend to get onto a bridge, your robot has to be designed for it. It will take good choreography to depend on an alliance partner already on a bridge to allow other alliance robots to join them there.

[Djur]

Getting onto a bridge is relatively easy if you have a frame with an angled bottom, much like tanks have. Then your robot can just drive at the bridge and it'll be pushed down as you go over it.

@Bill_B: Say the Red alliance gets to the coopertition bridge first. They get on, then drive to the other side to allow the Blue robot on. Red then backs up to balance the bridge while Blue is relatively motionless.

[ToddF]

Originally Posted by stevend1994

I'm starting to think that with the Coopertition bridge, maybe we should try and organize/create a standardized system of some sorts to communicate across the field on whether or not to go for the Coopertition bridge.

I was thinking along these same lines, maybe something using a piece of tri-colored LED strip light. These could be wrapped around a post to be visible in all directions. The strip could be:
off: no meaning
blinking red: heading for red ramp
blinking green: heading for coopertition ramp
blinking blue: heading for blue ramp

Sometime during the match, the drivers would trigger the appropriate light to signal their intentions. The team colored lights are more for the benefit of intrateam communication. If there are green blinking lights on opposite sides of the field, both alliances will know they are going for a coopertition score, and which robots will be trying it.

When two robots approach a ramp, the first one drives up on, and drives forward to tip the ramp to the second robot, then cuts power to the wheels so it can be pushed. The second robot pushes the first robot up the ramp until it becomes balanced. This bit of "ramp etiquette" establishes which robot controls the balancing, so the two robots on the ramp don't end up fighting each other.

Thoughts?

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by ToddF

I was thinking along these same lines, maybe something using a piece of tri-colored LED strip light. These could be wrapped around a post to be visible in all directions. The strip could be:
off: no meaning
blinking red: heading for red ramp
blinking green: heading for coopertition ramp
blinking blue: heading for blue ramp

Sometime during the match, the drivers would trigger the appropriate light to signal their intentions. The team colored lights are more for the benefit of intrateam communication. If there are green blinking lights on opposite sides of the field, both alliances will know they are going for a coopertition score, and which robots will be trying it.

When two robots approach a ramp, the first one drives up on, and drives forward to tip the ramp to the second robot, then cuts power to the wheels so it can be pushed. The second robot pushes the first robot up the ramp until it becomes balanced. This bit of "ramp etiquette" establishes which robot controls the balancing, so the two robots on the ramp don't end up fighting each other.

Thoughts?

I was thinking more of something along the lines of a hand signal, haha, might be hard to get the attention of the other alliance. Or, conversely, it could be something as simple as, "Have your robot go back and forth twice in front of the Coopertition Bridge". Something simple for teams to do, even if there robot is as simple as just kitframe on wheels and bumpers.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by Djur

Getting onto a bridge is relatively easy if you have a frame with an angled bottom, much like tanks have. Then your robot can just drive at the bridge and it'll be pushed down as you go over it.

I'm not certain, but I don't think that you can just drive at the bridge. When there is no external force on the bridge, the bridge remains parallel to the ground, meaning that you have to have some way of pushing it down, or cooperatively have an alliance member who can lift it up, as seen in the game animation.

[Donut]

Originally Posted by stevend1994

I'm not certain, but I don't think that you can just drive at the bridge. When there is no external force on the bridge, the bridge remains parallel to the ground, meaning that you have to have some way of pushing it down, or cooperatively have an alliance member who can lift it up, as seen in the game animation.

Spot on here. The bridge is roughly 1 foot high while level (note that that is above the bumper zone!) and returns to level anytime nothing is on it. If you watch the videos put out on the FIRST youtube channel they give a test as to where to place weight at a specific distance to get it to tip. Based on this you can calculate with some torque equations roughly how much force you need to tip the bridge down in front of your robot.

[ToddF]

Originally Posted by stevend1994

Or, conversely, it could be something as simple as, "Have your robot go back and forth twice in front of the Coopertition Bridge". Something simple for teams to do, even if there robot is as simple as just kitframe on wheels and bumpers.

Good idea. Driving up to the bridge and spinning in place would be pretty hard to miss. The light signal would give a little bit more advance warning. Maybe the LEDs for those who want the more "elegant" communication and have the ability to implement it, and the "bridge dance" for those who don't. Kind of like honeybees communicating in a hive by their waggle dancing.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by Donut

Spot on here. The bridge is roughly 1 foot high while level (note that that is above the bumper zone!) and returns to level anytime nothing is on it. If you watch the videos put out on the FIRST youtube channel they give a test as to where to place weight at a specific distance to get it to tip. Based on this you can calculate with some torque equations roughly how much force you need to tip the bridge down in front of your robot.

I'm not sure at exactly what point on the bridge, but calculations done by some of our team indicated it required a little under 6.5 lbs of force to tilt it.

[Mark Sheridan]

Originally Posted by ToddF

When two robots approach a ramp, the first one drives up on, and drives forward to tip the ramp to the second robot, then cuts power to the wheels so it can be pushed. The second robot pushes the first robot up the ramp until it becomes balanced. This bit of "ramp etiquette" establishes which robot controls the balancing, so the two robots on the ramp don't end up fighting each other.

This ramp etiquette will be key. Trying to communicate across the field about who is balancing will be difficult. Knowing that robot 1 won't interfere with robot 2 during balancing process, will be key to a successful balance

The better balancer should always be robot 2. Arranging this before the match will be critical. The timing that when robot 1 should get on the ramp, what happens when a robot breaks down and what hand signals/lights/flags mean what are the kind of things that need to be arranged before hand. I am just thinking that there needs to be a signal that indicates that one of the participating robot is unable to perform or aborting the cooperation balance.

[Ninja_Bait]

Originally Posted by Mark Sheridan

This ramp etiquette will be key. Trying to communicate across the field about who is balancing will be difficult. Knowing that robot 1 won't interfere with robot 2 during balancing process, will be key to a successful balance

The better balancer should always be robot 2. Arranging this before the match will be critical. The timing that when robot 1 should get on the ramp, what happens when a robot breaks down and what hand signals/lights/flags mean what are the kind of things that need to be arranged before hand. I am just thinking that there needs to be a signal that indicates that one of the participating robot is unable to perform or aborting the cooperation balance.

LED message signs?

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by KrazyCarl92

But the other side of the argument is that if you and a team on the other alliance feel like you have a good chance to get the coopertition bonus, you get 2 points for that and 0 points for not getting it, regardless of whether or not you win. That's just as important...

From a pure game theory perspective, gaining two qualification points via coopertition is less desirable than gaining two qualification points via winning a match. Winning a match provides two qualificaiton points to your team, and four QPs to other teams (two for each of your alliance partners). Balancing two robots grants your team two QPs, and ten to other teams (two partners and three opponents). Winning a match provides a better chance at seeding high than the coopertition ramp.

Obviously they are not mutually exclusive outcomes.

[Mr. Lim]

This question is pretty easy to answer if you know you're going to win every qualification match you play by 10+ points anyways.



I mean, it's first week. Isn't everyone thinking this way?

Or is it just me...

[Snorlax]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lim

This question is pretty easy to answer if you know you're going to win every qualification match you play by 10+ points anyways.



I mean, it's first week. Isn't everyone thinking this way?

Or is it just me...

Unless you wanted to attempt 3 robot balancing before the elimination matches.

[gyroscopeRaptor]

Originally Posted by Snorlax

Unless you wanted to attempt 3 robot balancing before the elimination matches.

Some might try it to show off for the scouts.