Inbounding or Hoarding Balls

[samholladay]

Hi, I'm a little unclear about the rules here. In Section 3 of the manual, "The Game," under 3.1.6, "Human Actions," in section <G31> it says that "Inbounders must remove Basketballs from the Corral immediately upon arrival. All Basketballs in the Alliance must be held by Inbounders." So, it's pretty clear that you can't just leave the opponent's balls in the corrals. Plus, you can hold up to 2 balls at a time.

However, in section <G32>, it says "Inbounders may enter Basketballs onto the court by...passing through the Inbound Slots at any time." Now, I know the intent of that clause was to say that you can pass balls through the slots at any point in the game, unlike throwing it over the Inbound Station, which can only happen during the last 30 seconds.

But it doesn't really say how long the human players can hold the two balls in their hands. They have to pick it up immediately, yes, but it doesn't say they have to return them immediately. In that case, up to 8 of the 18 total balls in play could be held by human players for the duration of the match. That would really change the scoring, since almost half the balls would be out of play, held by the human players. I'm sure I'm missing or misinterpreting something, but if not, maybe FIRST can release an update correcting this. Thanks.

I thought the same thing, too. I'm sure a rule will come out about it in one of the first few updates.

[dudeman2009]

As of now, you are completely correct. As long as the corral is empty and the human inbounders only hold two balls at a time, you could hoard balls.

I would expect a revision on that though.

[the man]

Yeah, If all three human player people have balls that's 6 + three in each robot on your alliance 9, So 6 + 9 = 15, This leaves, if estimates and assumptions are correct, between 1 and 3 balls left in play. (16 balls or 18, no clear definition in rules)

[Duke461]

Originally Posted by the man

(16 balls or 18, no clear definition in rules)

18

[the man]

See I'm unsure if they will put the two balls they put on the bridges on the co-opertion bridge, there already putting any extras on there.

[GaryVoshol]

Originally Posted by the man

See I'm unsure if they will put the two balls they put on the bridges on the co-opertion bridge, there already putting any extras on there.

Why are you unsure? The rule is pretty specific:

[G05] Each Bridge will be preset with two Basketballs. Basketballs allotted to Robots that are not used, will be preset on the Coopertition Bridge.

The first sentence gives the general condition - 2 balls on each bridge. The second sentence tells what will happen if a robot doesn't use the ball(s) allocated to it. The sentences are independent of each other.

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

Why are you unsure? The rule is pretty specific. The first sentence gives the general condition - 2 balls on each bridge. The second sentence tells what will happen if a robot doesn't use the ball(s) allocated to it. The sentences are independent of each other.

Exactly, so if each of the 6 Imbounders can hold 2 of the balls, and all do at the same time, that's 12 balls out of play, and only 6 others available on the field. Pretty big disadvantage.

If each of your alliance's Imbounders had 2, and if all of your robots had 3, that's only 3 left for the opposing alliance.

[Grim Tuesday]

Note that it would only be prudent for an inbounder to have 5 balls at a time; the middle guy would have to only have one ball at a time another drops in.

If he had two in his hand, the last guy would have to bounce one out, then they would all have to pass one down all before the new one hits the station.

[Joe Johnson]

Riddle me this batman...

It's show time on Einstein...

Blue alliance is a 3 balancing team. Red is not -- 2 balance max.

As long as Red cannot out score Blue by 20 points, the game is over.

Assume both red and blue score the same or similar scores in hybrid. I am guessing 32 is a common hybrid score -- perfect is 36. Say they tie 32-32

Of the 6 balls on the field, only the 2 on the Coopertition Bridge are in play (really), let's give those 2 to Red.

So... Red has access to 10 balls (including the ones with their inbounders and the on their bridge plus the middle bridge)

Blue has access to 8 balls.

After securing their 8 balls, Blue parks a robot in their Alley .9 robot widths from the window.

Blue inbounders in drop the balls in bounds between the Blue Window minder

Red scores 3 pts on all 10 balls (say). All 10 balls end up between the Blue Window Minder robot and the corner or in a Blue robot.

There are no more balls for Red to score.

Blue just keeps the balls away from Red by sitting in their alley and perhaps move to make sure every robot has 3 balls ready to score in each robot, but otherwise they spend the whole match sitting in their alley lined up to do a 3 point balance at the last minute.

Red, can do nothing but watch.

I was going to say that this is a guaranteed win for Blue but if Red scored all 10 balls in the 3pt hoop, they are winning by 30 points. If Red can do a 2 Robot Balance,

In which case, then Blue a robots will have to some how score 10+ points before they make their move... ...whoa, that'll be an AWESOME finish for Einstein...

...dang...

There is a TON to like about this game and I can't find anything seriously wrong with it yet.

Is this going to be THE YEAR that FIRST has that Killer Game we've all been pining for?

...Time will tell, but I think maybe so...

Joe J.

[D.Allred]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

Riddle me this batman...

It's show time on Einstein...

Blue alliance is a 3 balancing team. Red is not -- 2 balance max.

As long as Red cannot out score Blue by 20 points, the game is over.

Maybe incorrect. GDC reserved the right to change the balancing points at Championships. (G40 footnote.) I think they want the Einstein teams shooting instead of parking to balance. Or course, Einstein level teams may be able to do balance and shoot at the same time. That would be EPIC!

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by D.Allred

Maybe incorrect. GDC reserved the right to change the balancing points at Championships. (G40 footnote.) I think they want the Einstein teams shooting instead of parking to balance. Or course, Einstein level teams may be able to do balance and shoot at the same time. That would be EPIC!

...stop... ...you're making me weep...

I missed that and I couldn't be happier!

FIRST needs to have more explicit statements like this. Look at the NBA, they may rules all the time "for the good of the game" (by which they mean "more exciting to watch on TV so we get more folks to watch the NETs can get more advertizing $ so that the NBA can get more $... ...but I digress...)

This is a good thing.

Joe J.

[theprgramerdude]

36 points is not a perfect autonomous, though. A perfect autonomous involves shooting all 6 balls that are preset, then turning around, grabbing the 6 on the bridges, and scoring those, for a total of 72 points. Who knows, maybe some strange rebound from the other team might even cause a ball to bounce to the other side and be grabbed and scored, for 78 points or more. <- I'm betting grabbing the balls on the bridges will happen, especially for those top tier teams.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by theprgramerdude

36 points is not a perfect autonomous, though. A perfect autonomous involves shooting all 6 balls that are preset, then turning around, grabbing the 6 on the bridges,

Only 4 of the 6 balls are available to a team.

Originally Posted by 2012 FRC Game Manual

[G25]
Robots may not contact or otherwise interfere with the opposing Alliance Bridge.
Violation: Technical-Foul. If the act of Balancing is interfered with, also a Red Card and the Bridge will be counted as Balanced.

I suppose if a robot can autonomously obtain a ball without contacting the opposing bridge, that score is feasible. I wouldn't try it, though.

[Racer26]

Well, technically, a robot COULD grab those 2 on the opposing bridge. You wont be interfering with balancing, so you get the technical foul for 9 points, if you get both balls in the top hoop during Hybrid mode, they're worth 12, for a net gain of +3. The 9 points is an opportunity cost.