Inbounding or Hoarding Balls

[Joe Johnson]

Riddle me this batman...

It's show time on Einstein...

Blue alliance is a 3 balancing team. Red is not -- 2 balance max.

As long as Red cannot out score Blue by 20 points, the game is over.

Assume both red and blue score the same or similar scores in hybrid. I am guessing 32 is a common hybrid score -- perfect is 36. Say they tie 32-32

Of the 6 balls on the field, only the 2 on the Coopertition Bridge are in play (really), let's give those 2 to Red.

So... Red has access to 10 balls (including the ones with their inbounders and the on their bridge plus the middle bridge)

Blue has access to 8 balls.

After securing their 8 balls, Blue parks a robot in their Alley .9 robot widths from the window.

Blue inbounders in drop the balls in bounds between the Blue Window minder

Red scores 3 pts on all 10 balls (say). All 10 balls end up between the Blue Window Minder robot and the corner or in a Blue robot.

There are no more balls for Red to score.

Blue just keeps the balls away from Red by sitting in their alley and perhaps move to make sure every robot has 3 balls ready to score in each robot, but otherwise they spend the whole match sitting in their alley lined up to do a 3 point balance at the last minute.

Red, can do nothing but watch.

I was going to say that this is a guaranteed win for Blue but if Red scored all 10 balls in the 3pt hoop, they are winning by 30 points. If Red can do a 2 Robot Balance,

In which case, then Blue a robots will have to some how score 10+ points before they make their move... ...whoa, that'll be an AWESOME finish for Einstein...

...dang...

There is a TON to like about this game and I can't find anything seriously wrong with it yet.

Is this going to be THE YEAR that FIRST has that Killer Game we've all been pining for?

...Time will tell, but I think maybe so...

Joe J.

[D.Allred]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

Riddle me this batman...

It's show time on Einstein...

Blue alliance is a 3 balancing team. Red is not -- 2 balance max.

As long as Red cannot out score Blue by 20 points, the game is over.

Maybe incorrect. GDC reserved the right to change the balancing points at Championships. (G40 footnote.) I think they want the Einstein teams shooting instead of parking to balance. Or course, Einstein level teams may be able to do balance and shoot at the same time. That would be EPIC!

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by D.Allred

Maybe incorrect. GDC reserved the right to change the balancing points at Championships. (G40 footnote.) I think they want the Einstein teams shooting instead of parking to balance. Or course, Einstein level teams may be able to do balance and shoot at the same time. That would be EPIC!

...stop... ...you're making me weep...

I missed that and I couldn't be happier!

FIRST needs to have more explicit statements like this. Look at the NBA, they may rules all the time "for the good of the game" (by which they mean "more exciting to watch on TV so we get more folks to watch the NETs can get more advertizing $ so that the NBA can get more $... ...but I digress...)

This is a good thing.

Joe J.

[theprgramerdude]

36 points is not a perfect autonomous, though. A perfect autonomous involves shooting all 6 balls that are preset, then turning around, grabbing the 6 on the bridges, and scoring those, for a total of 72 points. Who knows, maybe some strange rebound from the other team might even cause a ball to bounce to the other side and be grabbed and scored, for 78 points or more. <- I'm betting grabbing the balls on the bridges will happen, especially for those top tier teams.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by theprgramerdude

36 points is not a perfect autonomous, though. A perfect autonomous involves shooting all 6 balls that are preset, then turning around, grabbing the 6 on the bridges,

Only 4 of the 6 balls are available to a team.

Originally Posted by 2012 FRC Game Manual

[G25]
Robots may not contact or otherwise interfere with the opposing Alliance Bridge.
Violation: Technical-Foul. If the act of Balancing is interfered with, also a Red Card and the Bridge will be counted as Balanced.

I suppose if a robot can autonomously obtain a ball without contacting the opposing bridge, that score is feasible. I wouldn't try it, though.

[Racer26]

Well, technically, a robot COULD grab those 2 on the opposing bridge. You wont be interfering with balancing, so you get the technical foul for 9 points, if you get both balls in the top hoop during Hybrid mode, they're worth 12, for a net gain of +3. The 9 points is an opportunity cost.

[windtakers]

Why would you want to hoard a lot of ball. Because all of the balls the opposing alliance makes in go to your inbounder who then bounce passes them to you side of the field and same for the other alliance.

[SteveGPage]

Originally Posted by Taylor

Only 4 of the 6 balls are available to a team.

A minimum of 4 are available to a team, there could be more, though, due to the extras, if there are any, being placed on the Coopertition Bridge.

[G05] Each Bridge will be preset with two Basketballs. Basketballs allotted to Robots that are not used, will be preset on the Coopertition Bridge.
(emphasis mine)

[Michael Hill]

Is putting balls on the ground considered "holding"? Now what about juggling?

Yeah, yeah...loopholes, I know. Just thinking outside the box.

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by SteveGPage

A minimum of 4 are available to a team, there could be more, though, due to the extras, if there are any, being placed on the Coopertition Bridge.

[G05] Each Bridge will be preset with two Basketballs. Basketballs allotted to Robots that are not used, will be preset on the Coopertition Bridge.
(emphasis mine)

I believe that the highest number of balls on the middle bridge could be 14 balls
2 to start
and 6 more from EACH alliance (if no robot on the field puts any on their robot) 2 per robot not using them... 3 X 2 X 2 alliances

That being said... IF a robot can shoot and come back to the middle and get balls... they could only control three before they shoot.

Even with a Kinect controlled Hybrid Auto Robot... I would think any team would be hard pressed to shoot 2... go back and get three and shoot them and then come back AGAIN for 3 more and shoot them in 15 seconds...so I would imagine that the realistic limit for score during auto would be

36 plus 18 which would be 54 points

Now IF one robot could do that autonmously... and another Kinect robot could grab 3 more balls and shoot them...after the autonomous robot scored 3...you could possibly have a score of 54 + 18 or 72...

That would incredible... the only problem is that it would require the opposing alliance to put at least 4 of its 6 balls in the middle. (to get to six extra on the middle bridge side)...

If I were on the opposing side against an alliance that COULD do this in an elimination ... I would find a way to put 2 balls on each robot...

I think during eliminations we will be looking at max scores of
36 plus 2 middle balls or 48 points...for the reason given directly above.

[tim-tim]

Will we be able to touch or tilt the Coopertition Bridge if their are more than 3 balls on it at an point in the match? Tilting the bridge would be then controlling the motion of all of the balls on the bridge. A given robot isnot allowed to control the motion of more than 3 balls at a time.

I know this is not the intent of the rule, but it is not excluded either.

[T Wallas Pog]

You could hoard an amount of balls in your lane given that when they enter your lane and you tap them it gives you three points. Essentially if your inbounders held 6 balls and your robots held 9 then the other three could be hoarded in the lane. This could work as long as the guarding robot was a significant distance away from the loose balls so it wouldn't be considered controlling the ball.

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by T Wallas Pog

You could hoard an amount of balls in your lane given that when they enter your lane and you tap them it gives you three points. Essentially if your inbounders held 6 balls and your robots held 9 then the other three could be hoarded in the lane. This could work as long as the guarding robot was a significant distance away from the loose balls so it wouldn't be considered controlling the ball.

You are still controlling the balls when they are in your alley:

Moving or positioning a Basketball to gain advantage is considered actively controlling. Examples are “carrying” (holding Basketballs in the Robot), “herding” (intentionally pushing or impelling Basketballs to a desired location or direction) and “trapping” (pressing one or more Basketballs against a Court element in an attempt to shield them).

Emphasis mine. Blue box [G22]

[wilhitern1]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

You are still controlling the balls when they are in your alley

I'd say that only while you are moving them are you considered to be controlling them. Thus the specification of trapping the ball.

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

You are still controlling the balls when they are in your alley:



Emphasis mine. Blue box [G22]

But the robot is not "moving or positioning" the balls at all; the inbounders are putting them there, and the robot is simply blocking them. I can't find anything in the rules that bans this strategy yet, although I wouldn't be surprised if there is soon...