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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-01-2012, 23:26
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Al Skierkiewicz Al Skierkiewicz is offline
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Re: Bumper question

Joe,
The rule does not say that bumpers can only exist on the outside of the Frame Perimeter. It simply says they have to be attached Frame perimeter. If one were to assume that the above diagram had no mounting on the inside of cutout, I find nothing that makes it illegal but I am working on it.
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Unread 08-01-2012, 23:30
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Re: Bumper question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
Quite frankly, I don't know why that interior bumper is outlined as "not OK". The rules say that a bumper must attach to the frame perimeter, which it does, it must be a minimum of 8" on either side of an exterior vertex, can't tell since the drawing is not dimensioned, etc. There do appear to be any rules that prevent interior bumpers. If I find out, I will let you know.

I believe the interior bumper is not ok as FIRST wants an 8" 'strike' zone to minimize damage to other machines. Otherwise below would be legal and leave a point that can cause damage to other machines. not to mention the whole 120 lb weight limit.
EDIT: It maybe good for a rule clarification about exterior angles that are less than 90* and thus protruding within the machine.

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Unread 08-01-2012, 23:39
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Al Skierkiewicz Al Skierkiewicz is offline
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Re: Bumper question

Nate,
The 120 lbs does not apply to the bumpers. Bumpers can weigh up to 20 lbs. As of right now, there is no rule that prevents your drawing from being used. Please expect this to change momentarily.
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Unread 10-01-2012, 23:17
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Re: Bumper question

Just want to be really clear here. Since the maximum width of the bot is 28", andy ou need 8" of bumper on each side of that, your very maximum opening on the front is 12"? If you have no frame there, just a gap, does the 8" rule still apply? (Meaning you can't have say an 18" gap with 5" of bumpers on each side?

I would hate for this rule to be interpreted wrong and potentially use an opening 30% smaller than legal.
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Unread 10-01-2012, 23:21
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Al Skierkiewicz Al Skierkiewicz is offline
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Re: Bumper question

Jared,
Current rules require a minimum of an 8" bumper section on both sides of the corner of the robot. Other parts of the bumper rule(s) cover slots, indents and gaps.
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Unread 10-01-2012, 23:37
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Re: Bumper question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
Joe,
The rule does not say that bumpers can only exist on the outside of the Frame Perimeter. It simply says they have to be attached Frame perimeter. If one were to assume that the above diagram had no mounting on the inside of cutout, I find nothing that makes it illegal but I am working on it.
<R01>
Quote:
The Robot must have a Frame Perimeter that is comprised of fixed, non-articulated structural elements of the Robot. The Frame Perimeter of a Robot is defined by the outer-most set of exterior verticies on the Robot that are within the Bumper Zone, which is between 2 and 10 in. from the floor. Minor protrusions no greater than ¼ in. such as bolt heads, fastener ends, and rivets are not considered part of the Frame Perimeter.

To determine the Frame Perimeter, wrap a piece of string around the Robot at the level described in [R02]. The string describes this polygon.
Emphasis mine. In short, a bumper intruding into the Frame Perimeter, as Dr. Joe pointed out, would violate this rule.
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Unread 11-01-2012, 00:04
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Re: Bumper question

Samuel,
As I pointed out earlier, the rules specify that the bumper needs to be attached to the exterior of the frame perimeter. It does not say bumpers have to be outside the frame perimeter. I expect this to be clarified in the near future so watch for Team Updates. In 2011 the rule read as follows...

A. BUMPERS must provide complete protection of the entire FRAME PERIMETER of the ROBOT (i.e. BUMPERS must wrap entirely around the ROBOT). As part of the 100% coverage, BUMPERS must protect all exterior corners of the FRAME PERIMETER.

In 2012 the rule reads...

Robots are required to use Bumpers to protect all exterior vertices of the Frame Perimeter. For adequate protection, at least 8 in. of Bumper must be placed on each side of each exterior vertex (see Figure 4?1, Figure 4?2, and Figure 4?3).

Emphasis mine to show the difference. That difference, while slight in 2011 required bumpers around the entire Frame Perimeter, 2012 rules specify that as a minimum the bumpers must cover the exterior vertices. It does not say that interior surfaces cannot also be covered. I believe that the GDC had intended the rule to prevent bumpers on interior openings in the frame. That is why I expect it to be changed at a future date.
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Unread 11-01-2012, 00:11
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Re: Bumper question

Quote:
Originally Posted by tlivingd View Post
I believe the interior bumper is not ok as FIRST wants an 8" 'strike' zone to minimize damage to other machines. Otherwise below would be legal and leave a point that can cause damage to other machines. not to mention the whole 120 lb weight limit.
EDIT: It maybe good for a rule clarification about exterior angles that are less than 90* and thus protruding within the machine.

OK, so per rules as they are stated in rev 00 and 01 this configuration would still be legal but would not meet the intent of having 8" strike zone so the bumper rules are likely to be revised to not allow for such frame?

Also, imagine starting off with a rectangular frame and chamfering two adjacent corners in such way that the chamfer diagonal length was at least 8". If the short wall in between the two chamfers was completely removed to make a ball intake would that satisfy all the rules? Figure 4.2 does not show such configuration. I assume it would also be against the spirit of the rule.

Wait: I think I got it. If the inlet is created by removing a section of straight wall as shown in fig 4.3 it does not create any new verticies for the frame perimeter. If the chamfers are added they will create two new verticies and those need 8" on each side of the vertex.
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Unread 11-01-2012, 00:14
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Re: Bumper question

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrashTestPilot View Post
Wait: I think I got it. If the inlet is created by removing a section of straight wall as shown in fig 4.3 it does not create any new verticies for the frame perimeter. If the chamfers are added they will create two new verticies and those need 8" on each side of the vertex.
Yes, I think you got it!
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Unread 11-01-2012, 18:02
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Re: Bumper question

As you told earlier, the bumpers have to be 2'' to 10'' from the floor. But until where? The bottom of the bumpers or till the higher part of it?
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Unread 11-01-2012, 18:10
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Re: Bumper question

"Robots are required to use Bumpers to protect all exterior vertices of the Frame Perimeter"

What if you have no exterior vertices...meaning your robot has a circular frame perimeter?
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Unread 11-01-2012, 18:15
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Re: Bumper question

The bumper zone (2-10" off the floor this year) typically is the zone that the bumpers have to be contained within - the top of the bumper can be no more than 10" from the floor, and the bottom no less than 2" from the floor.

Al - wouldn't a team with that design violate R35? I doubt anyone would consider those interior bumpers to be "approximately" 90 degrees from the other 3 sides of the robot!

Quote:
[R35]
Teams shall display their team number on the Bumpers in four locations at approximately 90° intervals around the perimeter of the Robot. The numerals must be at least 4 in. high, at least 3⁄4 in. in stroke width, and be either white in color or outlined in white. Team numbers must be clearly visible from a distance of not less than 100 ft, so that judges, referees, and announcers can easily identify competing Robots.
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Unread 11-01-2012, 18:30
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Re: Bumper question

Eagle,
Are you referring to the indented design? If so, should one side of the indent have numerals and they were visible from that side and you circled the robot at 90 degree intervals (assuming the other sides join each other at 90 degrees) then it is conceivable that a robot could meet that rule with visible numerals on the other three sides. I don't know what the GDC had in mind for robot frame design.

As far as circular frame designs, one interpretation could be that the entire frame perimeter was a continuous vertex and therefore the entire frame perimeter needed to be protected by bumper. I would have to ask for GDC guidance for this case, considering the 8" segment length rule in addition to other considerations. You guys are always challenging us.
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Unread 13-01-2012, 19:47
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Re: Bumper question

I hate to bring up this discussion once again, but we are having a discrepency within our team. Some people believe that you will be able to split up the 8" of bumper on one side of the robot into two 4" pieces (backed by the frame that is). My interpretation of the rules is that each corner of the robot needs to have 8" of bumper on both sides of it, that is on a normal sized robot, the 28" side of one corner needs 8" minimum of bumper and the 38" side needs 8" also. Since this applies to each corner, the maximum ammount of opening on the short side is 12", correct?

Here is a restatement of the rule in question:

Quote:
4.1.6 Bumper Rules
[R27]
Robots are required to use Bumpers to protect all exterior vertices of the Frame Perimeter. For adequate protection, at least 8 in. of Bumper must be placed on each side of each exterior vertex (see Figure 4‑1, Figure 4‑2, and Figure 4‑3).
I also attached a diaghram. Please post which side you believe to be correct.
Attached Images
File Type: bmp Bumper_rules.bmp (432.6 KB, 60 views)

Last edited by Cyberphil : 13-01-2012 at 19:57. Reason: change minimum to maximum
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Unread 13-01-2012, 19:52
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Re: Bumper question

Side A, hands down. 'at least 8" on each side of each exterior vertex' is what the rule says; that is what the inspectors are going to call legal.

No questions there.

And yes, the maximum opening (what I think you really meant to say) on the short side is 12" due to the 8". If you want more collection space, use a wide robot.
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