Go to Post I have never before seen the words "smaller" and "Saturn V" used in the same sentence. Wow. :yikes: - DonRotolo [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #61   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2012, 21:02
hdastwb's Avatar
hdastwb hdastwb is offline
Registered User
AKA: Daniel Woodworth
FRC #1677 (Quantum Ninjas)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Kalamazoo, MI
Posts: 8
hdastwb is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: <G28>

See, last year an opposing robot smashed into one end of our robot, disabling one of the gearboxes and moving our robot into the alley. Our driver's attempts to get our robot out of the alley were unsuccessful and only caused the robot to move back and forth over the boundary line, which he couldn't even see because the alliance wall was in the way. The result:
Our bot- multiple penalties and a red card for going over the boundary line
The aggressor- nothing; high speed collisions are just part of the game

After that experience, I am convinced that there's someone that will disable someone else's bot in a restricted area and then proceed to force them to incur G28's and get away with it because of the referee's interpretation of G44 and G45. If your referee's having a bad day and particularly doesn't like your robot, there is no way that you can argue against him and avoid getting penalized for the actions of the other team.
  #62   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2012, 21:56
ratdude747's Avatar
ratdude747 ratdude747 is offline
Official Scorekeeper
AKA: Larry Bolan
no team
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Madison, IN
Posts: 1,064
ratdude747 has a reputation beyond reputeratdude747 has a reputation beyond reputeratdude747 has a reputation beyond reputeratdude747 has a reputation beyond reputeratdude747 has a reputation beyond reputeratdude747 has a reputation beyond reputeratdude747 has a reputation beyond reputeratdude747 has a reputation beyond reputeratdude747 has a reputation beyond reputeratdude747 has a reputation beyond reputeratdude747 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G28>

Quote:
Originally Posted by hdastwb View Post
See, last year an opposing robot smashed into one end of our robot, disabling one of the gearboxes and moving our robot into the alley. Our driver's attempts to get our robot out of the alley were unsuccessful and only caused the robot to move back and forth over the boundary line, which he couldn't even see because the alliance wall was in the way. The result:
Our bot- multiple penalties and a red card for going over the boundary line
The aggressor- nothing; high speed collisions are just part of the game

After that experience, I am convinced that there's someone that will disable someone else's bot in a restricted area and then proceed to force them to incur G28's and get away with it because of the referee's interpretation of G44 and G45. If your referee's having a bad day and particularly doesn't like your robot, there is no way that you can argue against him and avoid getting penalized for the actions of the other team.
ummm... E-stop Button?
__________________
Dean's List Semi-finalist 2010
1747 Harrison Boiler Robotics 2008-2010, 2783 Engineers of Tomorrow 2011, Event Volunteer 2012-current

DISCLAIMER: Any opinions/comments posted are solely my personal opinion and does not reflect the views/opinions of FIRST, IndianaFIRST, or any other organization.
  #63   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2012, 22:13
DonRotolo's Avatar
DonRotolo DonRotolo is offline
Back to humble
FRC #0832
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 7,014
DonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G28>

Quote:
Originally Posted by ratdude747 View Post
ummm... E-stop Button?
It wasn't an unsafe condition.

From the 2011 rules:
Quote:
<G29> If a ROBOT becomes unsafe (e.g. the ROBOT begins to smoke, the battery falls out, etc.) it may be disabled by pressing the E-Stop button. This will cause the TEAM'S ROBOT to be disabled for the remainder of the MATCH. The E-Stop buttons are intended for remote shut down during a MATCH in the event of safety hazards and will not otherwise affect MATCH score or duration. Any TEAM member may press the E-Stop button. Violation: Inappropriate use of the E-Stop button (i.e. not for safety reasons) will result in a RED CARD.
__________________

I am N2IRZ - What's your callsign?
  #64   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2012, 23:09
chi-town-biker chi-town-biker is offline
Registered User
FRC #3135 (Robotic Colonels)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Chicago
Posts: 46
chi-town-biker is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: <G28>

The key and the alley are only 59 inches apart. In theory, a red robot in contact with the red key could touch a blue robot in contact with the blue alley. How is that scored?
  #65   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-01-2012, 09:25
Grim Tuesday's Avatar
Grim Tuesday Grim Tuesday is offline
Registered User
AKA: Simon Bohn
FRC #0639 (Code Red)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Baltimore MD (JHU)
Posts: 1,607
Grim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond reputeGrim Tuesday has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G28>

Quote:
Originally Posted by chi-town-biker View Post
The key and the alley are only 59 inches apart. In theory, a red robot in contact with the red key could touch a blue robot in contact with the blue alley. How is that scored?
It would seem that both robots receive fouls, so no net change.
  #66   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-01-2012, 09:35
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is offline
no bag, vex only, final destination
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #0228 (GUS Robotics); FRC #2170 (Titanium Tomahawks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 7,768
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: <G28>

The intent of the rule is crystal clear to me. Don't play defense on the robots. Play defense on the balls.
__________________
Mentor / Drive Coach: 228 (2016-?)
--2016 Waterbury SFs (with 3314, 3719), RIDE #2 Seed / Winners (with 1058, 6153), Carver QFs (with 503, 359, 4607)
Mentor / Consultant Person: 2170 (2017-?)
.
College Mentor: 2791 (2010-2015)
-- 2015 TVR Motorola Quality, FLR GM Industrial Design -- 2014 FLR Motorola Quality / SFs (with 341, 4930)
-- 2013 BAE Motorola Quality, WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182)
-- 2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / SFs (with 2168, 118)
Student: 1714 (2009) - 2009 MN 10K Lakes Regional Winners (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
  #67   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-01-2012, 10:11
Brandon Zalinsky's Avatar
Brandon Zalinsky Brandon Zalinsky is offline
Roaming GeorgiaFIRST MC
AKA: The Mecanum Man
FRC #1058 (PVC Pirates)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Clemson, SC
Posts: 456
Brandon Zalinsky has a brilliant futureBrandon Zalinsky has a brilliant futureBrandon Zalinsky has a brilliant futureBrandon Zalinsky has a brilliant futureBrandon Zalinsky has a brilliant futureBrandon Zalinsky has a brilliant futureBrandon Zalinsky has a brilliant futureBrandon Zalinsky has a brilliant futureBrandon Zalinsky has a brilliant futureBrandon Zalinsky has a brilliant futureBrandon Zalinsky has a brilliant future
Re: <G28>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris is me View Post
The intent of the rule is crystal clear to me. Don't play defense on the robots. Play defense on the balls.
Unfortunately, it's not the intent of the rule that people are going to follow. You know just a well as anyone else that G28 will be abused beyond belief, simply because it's easier than scoring.

Something has to change here.
__________________
This is our Robot. There are many like it, but this one is ours.
Measure twice, cut once, curse, buy more, and cut again.

2014- Excellence in Engineering (UNH), District Chairman's Award (NU), #8 Quarterfinalist (NECMP), Winner (Mainely Spirit)
2013- Semifinalists (Battlecry@WPI) Winner (Mainely Spirit)
2012- Regional Chairman's (GSR), Finalists as the #11 Alliance Captain (Battlecry@WPI)
2011-Xerox Creativity Award (GSR), Semifinalists (GSR) Innovation in Control (Virginia)
2010-Champion (GSR), Undefeated (Chesapeake), Coopertition Award (Chesapeake), Quarterfinalists (Galileo) 8th AC (IRI)
2008-Undefeated (GSR), Xerox Creativity Award (GSR)
  #68   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-01-2012, 10:39
pfreivald's Avatar
pfreivald pfreivald is offline
Registered User
AKA: Patrick Freivald
FRC #1551 (The Grapes of Wrath)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Naples, NY
Posts: 2,303
pfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G28>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flak-Bait View Post
Something has to change here.
The perspective of players?

Don't inflict penalties for their own sake, and you won't get a red card. Otherwise, stay away from opponents in/near their key, alley, and bridge!
__________________
Patrick Freivald -- Mentor
Team 1551
"The Grapes of Wrath"
Bausch & Lomb, PTC Corporation, and Naples High School

I write books, too!
  #69   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-01-2012, 11:16
Chris Hibner's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Chris Hibner Chris Hibner is offline
Eschewing Obfuscation Since 1990
AKA: Lars Kamen's Roadie
FRC #0051 (Wings of Fire)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 1,488
Chris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G28>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flak-Bait View Post
You know just a well as anyone else that G28 will be abused beyond belief, simply because it's easier than scoring.
If you stay more than 60 inches from the opponent's key and lane, then G28 penalties will become impossible. You can't abuse the penalty if you make it impossible to commit.

I don't know why everyone is making it so complicated. Don't play defense near the key and lane and it won't be an issue.
__________________
-
An ounce of perception is worth a pound of obscure.

Last edited by Chris Hibner : 11-01-2012 at 11:19.
  #70   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-01-2012, 11:42
efoote868 efoote868 is offline
foote stepped in
AKA: E. Foote
FRC #0868
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Noblesville, IN
Posts: 1,421
efoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G28>

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hibner View Post
If you stay more than 60 inches from the opponent's key and lane, then G28 penalties will become impossible. You can't abuse the penalty if you make it impossible to commit.

I don't know why everyone is making it so complicated. Don't play defense near the key and lane and it won't be an issue.
Say you're in between the opposing team's lane, and an opposing robot (Even clear across the field). The opposing robot pushes you into the lane, and touches the lane. Should that be worth 3 points to the other team?

Say they pin you, back off, and force you in again. Should that be worth another 3 points?

Is that abusing the rule the way it is written? The intent is to keep you from blocking certain areas of the field.
If the GDC interprets this the same way, may the best drivetrain win.
__________________

Be Healthy. Never Stop Learning. Say It Like It Is. Own It. Like our values? Flexware Innovation is hiring!. We're looking for Senior Automation, Software, and System Engineers. Check us out!
  #71   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-01-2012, 13:30
Chris Hibner's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Chris Hibner Chris Hibner is offline
Eschewing Obfuscation Since 1990
AKA: Lars Kamen's Roadie
FRC #0051 (Wings of Fire)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 1,488
Chris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G28>

Quote:
Originally Posted by efoote868 View Post
Say you're in between the opposing team's lane, and an opposing robot (Even clear across the field). The opposing robot pushes you into the lane, and touches the lane. Should that be worth 3 points to the other team?

Say they pin you, back off, and force you in again. Should that be worth another 3 points?

Is that abusing the rule the way it is written? The intent is to keep you from blocking certain areas of the field.
If the GDC interprets this the same way, may the best drivetrain win.
If the team that gets pushed into the lane (or key) was between you in an effort to impede your progress, then I have no problem with the first foul. The pinning part IS an issue (I'll admit that) - if the robot makes an attempt to leave the lane and you go back and touch them, I would agree that is abusing the rule. However, if the defending robot just sits in the lane and makes no effort to get out of your way after you back off, then they should be subject to further fouls.

If a team is already in the lane or key I definitely have no problem with awarding multiple fouls for backing up and touching them again. My point is there needs to be significant motivation for a team to move out of the lane and key, and not block an offensive maneuver near the lane and key. Without being able to draw multiple fouls, it's very easy to negate 9 points at the cost of a single 3 point penalty.

Also, a chokehold strategy exists for this game if you do away with the multiple G28 fouls.
__________________
-
An ounce of perception is worth a pound of obscure.

Last edited by Chris Hibner : 11-01-2012 at 13:56.
  #72   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2012, 22:36
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,819
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G28>

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
That said: I think that TU#1 will address this question. If it does not, then Q&A should be asked for confirmation. If my interpretation is correct, matches can be won far too easily by teams exploiting [G28]. If my interpretation is incorrect, then I'm concerned about nothing. But nobody has been able to fully show me that I'm wrong so far.
Q&A was asked, and my interpretation was definitively ruled incorrect.
Quote:
Game - The Game » Robot-Robot Interaction » G28
Q. Is a strategy to exploit G28 considered to be a strategy to exploit G44 which would be a technical foul and red card according to G45? A. Yes.
In other words, don't count on a zillion points for tapping an opponent multiple times while you're in contact with a protected area. This is the interpretation/clarification I was hoping for.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

  #73   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2012, 22:51
JB987 JB987 is online now
Registered User
AKA: Joe Barry
FRC #0987 (HIGH ROLLERS)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: May 2006
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: LAS VEGAS
Posts: 1,176
JB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G28>

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Q&A was asked, and my interpretation was definitively ruled incorrect.


In other words, don't count on a zillion points for tapping an opponent multiple times while you're in contact with a protected area. This is the interpretation/clarification I was hoping for.
The million dollar question is...how many "taps" equates to a "strategy"?
  #74   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2012, 23:00
Daniel_LaFleur's Avatar
Daniel_LaFleur Daniel_LaFleur is offline
Mad Scientist
AKA: Me
FRC #2040 (DERT)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 1,976
Daniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Daniel_LaFleur
Re: <G28>

Quote:
Originally Posted by JB987 View Post
The million dollar question is...how many "taps" equates to a "strategy"?
That will be the referees decision.

Thus ... don't try to draw fouls.
__________________
___________________
"We are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. "
- Tennyson, Ulysses
  #75   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2012, 23:57
rich2202 rich2202 is offline
Registered User
FRC #2202 (BEAST Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,251
rich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G28>

The issue is "exploit". If there is a purpose for your movement (aside from scoring g28 points), and it causes a G28 violation, then it is not an "exploit" for G45 purposes.

For instance, if you are getting a ball from your inbound station and dashing for the bridge, the other team better get out of the alley. If you see another bot in your alley, and you make a mad dash at it for the sole purpose of scoring g28 points, then that is a g45 violation. If the other bot was going for a loose ball in your alley, then the purpose of the mad dash is going after the ball, and not the other bot, thus not an "exploit".

Similarly, if you are pushing another bot out of the way, so you can shoot from the key, then that is ok. If you don't have a ball to shoot, then that can be considered an "exploit". But, if you are clearing the key so an alliance bot can shoot, then that is ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hibner View Post
Scenario 1: Robot Z herds the balls into the corner of the field in the lane and parks their robot so Robot A can't get them.
No different than if Z had the 3 balls in its body. A could not go after the balls. Thus, any contact is a violation of G28.

However, if Z had 3 balls in its body, and was hearding 3 additional balls, then Z could be in violation of G22, and all A would have to do is approach to get the loose balls, and A would get the points without having to actually contact Z, thus defeating the purpose of your scenario (keeping A from scoring).

Quote:
Scenario 2:
Robot Z knows this and anchors itself to the part of the key that Robot A likes to shoot from.
Z has no valid game purpose from immobilizing in that position. Thus, how ever many contacts it takes to get Z to move is Z's problem. A is not "exploiting" for the purpose of scoring fouls, so there is no G45 violation.

Note: There is also an issue of how often you can "touch". The Pin rules (g29) could apply where another contact would not be considered a "touch" for foul scoring purposes until the bots separated by 6' and 3 seconds.

Another question is: What if 2 alliance bots touch the same opponent bot around the same time? Let say the opponent bot is in the key. Two alliance bots push the bot away so they can shoot. I think that would be 2 fouls.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:07.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi