Go to Post I think it would be beneficial for us frogs to be in the new hopper division - zsm150 [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2012, 18:18
jblay's Avatar
jblay jblay is offline
Here comes StuyPulse
AKA: Joe Blay
FRC #0694 (StuyPulse)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: New York, NY
Posts: 984
jblay has a reputation beyond reputejblay has a reputation beyond reputejblay has a reputation beyond reputejblay has a reputation beyond reputejblay has a reputation beyond reputejblay has a reputation beyond reputejblay has a reputation beyond reputejblay has a reputation beyond reputejblay has a reputation beyond reputejblay has a reputation beyond reputejblay has a reputation beyond repute
<G01> Question

Quote:
[G01] When placed on the Court, each Robot must be in compliance with all Robot rules, may not exceed 60 in. tall, and have all appendages within its Frame Perimeter. The Robot must be in contact with its Key, and may contain up to two Basketballs.
Violation: Disabled for the Match and re-Inspection if an illegal Robot
Does this mean that robots must have the ball inside of them or they end up on the coopertition bridge by rule <G05>

Quote:
[G05]Each Bridge will be preset with two Basketballs. Basketballs allotted to Robots that are not used, will be preset on the Coopertition Bridge.
Violation: Match will not start until the situation is corrected.
Or can robots put the balls on top of their bot or touching their bumper?

This maybe more of a clarification question for the Q&A forums but I'm hoping I missed something and someone in the CD community can clarify for me because the way this rule goes changes a lot.
__________________
It's pronounced StighPulse like HighPulse
2016 Curie Champions
2016 New York City Champions
2016 New York City Engineering Inspiration
2015 New York City Finalists
2013 New York City Champions
2012 Connecticut Chairman's
2011 Connecticut Chairman's
2010 Connecticut Chairman's

2010 New York City Champions
2008 New York City Engineering Inspiration
2007 New York City Finalists
2006 New York City Finalists
2005 New York City Chairman's
2003 New York City Champions
2002 New York City Engineering Inspiration
2001 New York City Finalists
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2012, 18:20
GaryVoshol's Avatar
GaryVoshol GaryVoshol is offline
Cogito ergo arbitro
no team
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Royal Oak, MI
Posts: 5,762
GaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G01> Question

The way I interpret it, "contain" does not include a ball sitting on the ground touching the bumper. But I may be proven wrong.
__________________
(since 2004)
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2012, 20:01
nssheepster's Avatar
nssheepster nssheepster is offline
Da' Rule Man
AKA: Nik Shepherd
FRC #0174 (Arctic Warriors)
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Liverpool, NY
Posts: 107
nssheepster is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: <G01> Question

It means that you can have 2 basketballs, but if you or anyone else chooses not to, those balls will be placed on the coopertition bridge. It's an option.
__________________
In theory, this should work.
In practice, not so much.
F.I.R.S.T. = For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology
So really, it's F.I.A.R.O.S.A.T.?
Nah, that doesn't sound as good.
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2012, 20:13
Ninja_Bait's Avatar
Ninja_Bait Ninja_Bait is offline
Former Prez of Making Things Go
AKA: Jake Potter
FRC #0694 (StuyPulse)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 650
Ninja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G01> Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by nssheepster View Post
It means that you can have 2 basketballs, but if you or anyone else chooses not to, those balls will be placed on the coopertition bridge. It's an option.
That part's pretty obvious. The question Blay, and the rest of our team, is asking, is, what entails "have"? Is it "contain" as in have inside the frame perimeter? Or, is it "used" as in touching the robot in any way (more along the lines of the broader definition for "active control")? Is it an either/or/both situation?

For an example: "Contain" may be like 2009 where the balls started inside your robot but never on the field, just touching the robot. "Used" may be like 2011 where the ubertubes just had to touch the robot bumpers, even though the robot could also hold a tube.

Because G01 uses the word "may", that implies that we don't have to "contain" the balls to count them as "used" (and therefore not destined for the coopertition bridge) as in G05.
__________________
You can't fix something that isn't broken... but you can always break things that aren't fixed!

  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2012, 21:24
DonRotolo's Avatar
DonRotolo DonRotolo is offline
Back to humble
FRC #0832
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 7,019
DonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G01> Question

I throw a soda can on the ground, and it ends up touching a trash pail. Does that trash pail contain that soda can?

No, of course not.

Now replace "soda can" with "ball" and "Trash pail" with "robot". Any different?

This is what the GDC means when they plead that you do not "lawyer" the rules.
__________________

I am N2IRZ - What's your callsign?
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-01-2012, 22:04
Tristan Lall's Avatar
Tristan Lall Tristan Lall is offline
Registered User
FRC #0188 (Woburn Robotics)
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 2,484
Tristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G01> Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonRotolo View Post
This is what the GDC means when they plead that you do not "lawyer" the rules.
While that much is obvious, it's still not quite clear what "contain" means:
  1. Ball in completely enclosed container.
  2. Ball in partially enclosed container; ball does not stick out of enclosure or touch anything but the robot (and the atmosphere).
  3. Ball in partially enclosed container; ball sticks out of enclosure, but does not touch anything but the robot (and the atmosphere).
  4. Ball in partially enclosed container; ball sticks out of enclosure, and touches the ground and/or another robot (and the robot and the atmosphere).
  5. Ball in partially enclosed container; ball sticks out of enclosure, and outside of actual robot dimensions (either bumpers included/bumpers excluded).
  6. Ball in partially enclosed container; ball sticks out of enclosure, and outside of maximum robot dimensions (either bumpers included/bumpers excluded).
  7. Ball is pinched (so a portion of it is "contained" in the gripper).
  8. Other variations on and combinations of the above that would be tedious to list.
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-01-2012, 11:11
nssheepster's Avatar
nssheepster nssheepster is offline
Da' Rule Man
AKA: Nik Shepherd
FRC #0174 (Arctic Warriors)
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Liverpool, NY
Posts: 107
nssheepster is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: <G01> Question

While I don't have the number, "contain" versus, "is touching" has already been covered in the rules. The intent is that you must be in some way attempting to control where the balls are. If they are just set on your robot, I don't think it will count. Ask the GDC.
__________________
In theory, this should work.
In practice, not so much.
F.I.R.S.T. = For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology
So really, it's F.I.A.R.O.S.A.T.?
Nah, that doesn't sound as good.
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-01-2012, 00:38
rich2202 rich2202 is offline
Registered User
FRC #2202 (BEAST Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 1,275
rich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond reputerich2202 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G01> Question

I think "control" is the key. If the ball can be shot without moving the bot (or extending out to get the ball), then it is contained. One example is: Let's say you have catapult, and when the ball is seated, the ball overhangs the frame by 2". I think the ball is functionally contained by your bot.
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-01-2012, 00:41
Andrew Lawrence
 
Posts: n/a
Re: <G01> Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich2202 View Post
I think "control" is the key. If the ball can be shot without moving the bot (or extending out to get the ball), then it is contained. One example is: Let's say you have catapult, and when the ball is seated, the ball overhangs the frame by 2". I think the ball is functionally contained by your bot.
But it does't say the ball needs to be "controlled", like in other sections of the rules. It says contain, and that is open to interpretation. I'd leave the question open until the next 2 rule changes or so.
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-01-2012, 09:23
nssheepster's Avatar
nssheepster nssheepster is offline
Da' Rule Man
AKA: Nik Shepherd
FRC #0174 (Arctic Warriors)
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Liverpool, NY
Posts: 107
nssheepster is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: <G01> Question

Guys, if you are influencing where it goes with your 'bot, and your 'bot is preventing other 'bots from accessing those balls, you are, in some way, containing it.
__________________
In theory, this should work.
In practice, not so much.
F.I.R.S.T. = For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology
So really, it's F.I.A.R.O.S.A.T.?
Nah, that doesn't sound as good.
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-01-2012, 09:47
mwmac's Avatar
mwmac mwmac is offline
JWBWIFWWWADD
AKA: Mike MacLean
FRC #2122 (Team Tators)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: "Wasteland", Idaho
Posts: 665
mwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G01> Question

Game animation shows bulldozer bot with 2 balls placed atop the robot but not actively controlled, at start of match. Recognizing that animation does not necessarily translate into the rules of the game, it does seem to indicate that box on wheels bots could have the balls at the start of the match in order to avoid having them placed on the coopertition bridge. just my .02...
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-01-2012, 09:49
Siri's Avatar
Siri Siri is offline
Dare greatly
AKA: 1640 coach 2010-2014
FRC #2641 (PCCR; Refs & RIs)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: PA
Posts: 1,640
Siri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond reputeSiri has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via ICQ to Siri
Re: <G01> Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by nssheepster View Post
While I don't have the number, "contain" versus, "is touching" has already been covered in the rules. The intent is that you must be in some way attempting to control where the balls are. If they are just set on your robot, I don't think it will count. Ask the GDC.
Are you thinking of "actively control" from <G22>? Because "contain" is only used twice in the rules:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manual Excerpts
<G01> When placed on the Court, each Robot must be in compliance with all Robot rules, may not exceed 60 in. tall, and have all appendages within its Frame Perimeter. The Robot must be in contact with its Key, and may contain up to two Basketballs. ...
<G02> Alignment devices such as templates, tape measures, laser pointers, etc. that are not part of the Robot and fully contained within the starting volume may not be used to assist with positioning the Robot.
It's mentioned 3 times in administrative situation within The Arena, and that's all.

I think Tristan's hit it. "Contain" could reasonably be construed to mean "completely enclosed container", "partially enclosed container, entirely within the frame perimeter", "partially enclosed container, partially within the frame perimeter", "no container necessary, but entirely within the frame perimeter", "no container necessary, but fully supported by the robot", and number of other things. Are these balls "contained" within our Lunacy robot? Is this trackball? What about this one?


Apologies to the teams I randomly Googled. Cool robots.
__________________
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 13-01-2012, 09:49
Ninja_Bait's Avatar
Ninja_Bait Ninja_Bait is offline
Former Prez of Making Things Go
AKA: Jake Potter
FRC #0694 (StuyPulse)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 650
Ninja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond reputeNinja_Bait has a reputation beyond repute
Re: <G01> Question

Hang on - the word "contain" is not really in question here, it's the word "used" in G05. Obviously "contain" is like holding a ball in your hopper. But is "used" limited to "containing" or is it all the actions in "active control"? That's what I was trying to say in my earlier post; hopefully this clarifies that.

We will be asking the GDC this one.
__________________
You can't fix something that isn't broken... but you can always break things that aren't fixed!

  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 14-01-2012, 14:02
nssheepster's Avatar
nssheepster nssheepster is offline
Da' Rule Man
AKA: Nik Shepherd
FRC #0174 (Arctic Warriors)
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Liverpool, NY
Posts: 107
nssheepster is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: <G01> Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Siri View Post
Are you thinking of "actively control" from <G22>?[/size]
Yes, sorry. But honestly, I think they're very similar. How about we treat it as, say, choose to have them on, in, or near the robot? This puts contain aside. i think the field crew would just ask before they gave you the balls, so the question could, feasibly, end up a moot point.
__________________
In theory, this should work.
In practice, not so much.
F.I.R.S.T. = For Inspiration and Recognition of Science and Technology
So really, it's F.I.A.R.O.S.A.T.?
Nah, that doesn't sound as good.
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-01-2012, 20:02
LinuxArchitect LinuxArchitect is offline
Registered User
AKA: George Boyce
FRC #0053 (Cow Abductors)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Greenbelt MD
Posts: 78
LinuxArchitect is a name known to allLinuxArchitect is a name known to allLinuxArchitect is a name known to allLinuxArchitect is a name known to allLinuxArchitect is a name known to allLinuxArchitect is a name known to all
Re: <G01> Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja_Bait View Post
Hang on - the word "contain" is not really in question here, it's the word "used" in G05. Obviously "contain" is like holding a ball in your hopper. But is "used" limited to "containing" or is it all the actions in "active control"? That's what I was trying to say in my earlier post; hopefully this clarifies that.

We will be asking the GDC this one.
I've also asked the GDC.

I believe in G05, "not used" refers to balls that are unclaimed because the robot is MIA or DOA. I suppose a team could voluntarily not use a ball, but I'm not sure why.

I believe in G01, contain implies the ball is within the frame perimeter. But I think a ball could still be used by placing it on the ground touching the robot.
Presumably you would do so to let your alliance partner pick it up to score. So G01 permits you to preload your two balls, but does not require it.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:44.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi