What to do when the odds seem stacked against me?

[davidthefat]

May be a few of you have read my post, but it was in bad taste. Many times, during discussions during meetings, I feel like talking to a wall. I have forewarned of many issues we faced and no one ever seems to listen. All I can do is say "I told you so". I don't want to do that anymore. I want to fix the problem and not just say "oh well" after competition. Many of you have noticed my imposing and direct personality. Well, the truth is that I am like that in real life regarding things I love. I love FIRST, I cannot imagine high school without it. And again, this year, I give my warnings to my team. I give my whole life to our team; I even skipped the team dinner doing background work today, and I often have done before. I show up to every meeting early and give my all and leave the latest. Sometimes, I feel very unappreciated. What threw me off the edge was the complete lack of confidence in the team of them themselves. It really is hard working in these conditions. Keep in mind, I give countless hours of my life learning new challenging topics so that I can present to my team the finest David can give. I expect the same standards of commitment from a lot of the team members, but I just seem to be standing alone at times. I am not saying that members are not committed, but I feel very insulted by the decision that the team came to. I just walked out of the room before they even voted. I was sick of it; I already knew the decision. They chose the simplest design irrelevant to this year's game. I just can't tell if anyone is serious or not.

Why I post here is just so that I can rant; I just need to get this out there. Feel free to criticize me, but keep in mind, I pretty close to breaking down right now. So much commitment I have given to the team, and all they give me is that "we will get by" mentality.


I am very close to just stop programming for the team this year. There just is nothing complex enough for me to do. I can just let the rookies do everything. We got a great new programming mentor this year. I think they will do fine.

[SenorZ]

That is very unfortunate. FIRST is all about pushing young minds to their highest level, and achieving what you didn't know was possible.

Sounds like you have a leadership problem. At our first meeting, after I assigned manual reading and brainstorming for HW, I asked for ideas, presented some of my own, and we discussed them all. I had to insist that going for the easy build was fine for our rookie year, but not anymore. We had to plan a good, efficient, elegant design, and MAKE IT WORK.

In the end my students agreed with me. We have a LOT of work ahead of us, but I know it will benefit them more in the end.

You should talk with your mentors about this.

[KrazyCarl92]

David, I know what it feels like to be the earliest one to arrive, last one to leave, and the most dedicated on the team. It's tough sometimes, but ultimately it's rewarding. Take a deep breath and a step back for a second. It's day 7...38 more to go. Things could still turn around, but walking out on your team probably doesn't help matters. They may feel like YOU have given up on THEM. Make sure your teammates and mentors don't feel that way, that isn't fair to them as the most dedicated member of your team. And while you love FIRST, keep in mind that there is more to FIRST than building an award winning kick-$@#$@#$@# robot. There's the relationships that you build with your mentors and teammates, and other teams mentors and students. There's also the learning that is involved with every step of the way. My team didn't have a very successful year last year in my senior year. Do I wish things had gone better from a performance standpoint? Definitely. But I also learned more from the 2011 FRC season than any other experience in my life. If your team relies on you, it's because they respect you. If you have earned their respect, don't let it go by storming out on them. Good luck!

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by KrazyCarl92

David, I know what it feels like to be the earliest one to arrive, last one to leave, and the most dedicated on the team. It's tough sometimes, but ultimately it's rewarding. Take a deep breath and a step back for a second. It's day 7...38 more to go. Things could still turn around, but walking out on your team probably doesn't help matters. They may feel like YOU have given up on THEM. Make sure your teammates and mentors don't feel that way, that isn't fair to them as the most dedicated member of your team. And while you love FIRST, keep in mind that there is more to FIRST than building an award winning kick-$@#$@#$@# robot. There's the relationships that you build with your mentors and teammates, and other teams mentors and students. There's also the learning that is involved with every step of the way. My team didn't have a very successful year last year in my senior year. Do I wish things had gone better from a performance standpoint? Definitely. But I also learned more from the 2011 FRC season than any other experience in my life. If your team relies on you, it's because they respect you. If you have earned their respect, don't let it go by storming out on them. Good luck!

Never actually considered leaving. I mean even after last year's season, I have been lobbying to allocate about $1-2k for "research and development" so that rookies can actually get experience and veterans can push our limits as a team. However, I have been told that "it is not okay to go to the cockpit of a plane and take control because you don't like where it is going" from my mentor. He said that I can leave and join one of the local teams. But this was way before kick off. He knows that I'll never leave.

[KrazyCarl92]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

I just walked out of the room before they even voted. I was sick of it; I already knew the decision.

That's what I meant by storming out, not leaving the team, sorry if I wasn't clear.

[Alex.q]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

Never actually considered leaving. I mean even after last year's season, I have been lobbying to allocate about $1-2k for "research and development" so that rookies can actually get experience and veterans can push our limits as a team. However, I have been told that "it is not okay to go to the cockpit of a plane and take control because you don't like where it is going" from my mentor. He said that I can leave and join one of the local teams. But this was way before kick off. He knows that I'll never leave.

I disagree with your coach, but every team is different. On my team, we have a slogan "student led, mentor driven," and many of the decisions are made by students, from structure of meetings, to schedule and division of labor, to what we do in the offseason. I have seen our team change directions multiple times and reorient itself to improve our skills and our finished product. I don't know how your team structures its leadership, and I'm not recommending you demand your way, but I think you could try to explain to your coach and mentors what it is you want to change, how you would change it, and your vision of how that would influence the team. If he still ignores you, commit yourself to designing and building a good roobot despite the limitations of your team.

[davepowers]

I can relate to this very much, in many ways. I would do anything, at any time, for GUS, and sometimes seeing kids with different perspectives toward the program frustrates me. But everyone receives different life experiences from FIRST, some small, some huge. So just remember, if you keep doing what you're doing, and honestly giving it everything you've got, you are making a difference, even if it doesn't show at this moment, at some moment in the future, it will. If you're always right, or always have an idea that will end up being successful, people will start to listen. The best way to motivate is too inspire. So keep doing what you're doing, it will pay off. I can promise you that.

-D

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by Alex.q

I disagree with your coach, but every team is different. On my team, we have a slogan "student led, mentor driven," and many of the decisions are made by students, from structure of meetings, to schedule and division of labor, to what we do in the offseason. I have seen our team change directions multiple times and reorient itself to improve our skills and our finished product. I don't know how your team structures its leadership, and I'm not recommending you demand your way, but I think you could try to explain to your coach and mentors what it is you want to change, how you would change it, and your vision of how that would influence the team. If he still ignores you, commit yourself to designing and building a good roobot despite the limitations of your team.

I already done that, I had the whole thing CADed out and presented a very professional and complete presentation on it yesterday. In fact, everyone commented on how great my idea is and how great my presentation was. The vote was a tie between those two designs. But the thing that scared the people away was the complexity and the level of detail that I went into. I explicitly stated that it is scalable down to a less complex version. Today, we had a re-vote, their main platform was the simplicity. Mine was that their idea filed before in a previous year and that it would be ineffective as anything. It simply will not kick high or far enough.

Originally Posted by davepowers

I can relate to this very much, in many ways. I would do anything, at any time, for GUS, and sometimes seeing kids with different perspectives toward the program frustrates me. But everyone receives different life experiences from FIRST, some small, some huge. So just remember, if you keep doing what you're doing, and honestly giving it everything you've got, you are making a difference, even if it doesn't show at this moment, at some moment in the future, it will. If you're always right, or always have an idea that will end up being successful, people will start to listen. The best way to motivate is too inspire. So keep doing what you're doing, it will pay off. I can promise you that.

-D

See the above response. Apparently, my ideas are "too perfect".

[smurfgirl]

It sounds like you're very invested in FIRST and you really care about your team. Like any other life experience, FIRST comes with highs and lows. Since FIRST is so important to you, these ups and downs affect you even more, and it's easy to lose perspective and get really frustrated. That's not a sign that it's time to walk away, though. A lot of us have been there before. I remember some days from high school when I would come home from meetings and say that I was done with everything, and I was quitting forever. Four years later as I'm about to graduate college, I'm still here. Sometimes, there are moments that can be disappointing and frustrating and you'll want to tear your hair out... and that's okay; it comes with anything that's important to you that you make a big part of your life. Take a step back and look at the big picture, though. The majority of your time in FIRST, the parts that will stick with you for the rest of your life, are fun and inspiring and challenging and life-changing and all of the other things you hear people talk about. Try to focus on those moments.

However, it sounds like there are some issues you should try to address with your team. Choose your battles wisely - only pick one or two issues that are important to you to focus on. Explain yourself clearly and use data to support your thoughts/requests/concerns. Everyone should have the chance to make your voice heard, so hopefully your teammates and your mentors will listen to you. A team is made up of more than one person, so it is to be expected that your team won't always follow your ideas, but it is expected that they at least hear you out before making a decision.

Good luck!

[theprgramerdude]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

I already done that, I had the whole thing CADed out and presented a very professional and complete presentation on it yesterday. In fact, everyone commented on how great my idea is and how great my presentation was. The vote was a tie between those two designs. But the thing that scared the people away was the complexity and the level of detail that I went into. I explicitly stated that it is scalable down to a less complex version. Today, we had a re-vote, their main platform was the simplicity. Mine was that their idea filed before in a previous year and that it would be ineffective as anything. It simply will not kick high or far enough.




See the above response. Apparently, my ideas are "too perfect".

Similar issue last year happened to me.

Sometimes, people just don't get things, and you have to accept that everyone can make stupid decisions, even if you don't agree with them.

If you want a chance to rectify the situation, here's what I'd do: HELP THEM. If it really is that bad, help them build the initial robot, get it programmed with basic code, and then show them just how bad their idea is so they can scrap it. Case in point: We went with a scissor-lift initially last year (no one tried them before for FRC, and thought it might work because it was "stable"). At week 3, we realized it was a really, really crappy idea, on top of the lift ripping itself in half under no load, despite all the reinforcement.

By chance, does the kicker happen to be based on some sort of arm, or involve pneumatics?

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by davidthefat

...I even skipped the team dinner...I just walked out of the room before they even voted...I am very close to just stop programming for the team this year...I can just let the rookies do everything.

It sounds to me like you have difficulty being part of a team. You might want to work on that before you rant much more about the direction the team is going.

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

It sounds to me like you have difficulty being part of a team. You might want to work on that before you rant much more about the direction the team is going.

It just turns out that my mentor and I have different mentalities. He would rather have a terribly performing robot that works and that would allow the kids to learn more. I would rather push the kids a little bit too far that they don't quite get it and then learn from that experience.

Because from the sounds of it, his mentality sounded like "Since I know you kids can only walk a few steps, I am going to make you crawl your way through". I think it is appropriate to push the kids beyond their limits and force them to succeed. Just different schools of thought.

Being part of a team probably is my flaw. I don't even know half the kids on the team because most of them are rookies. I am the type that keeps to himself until needed.

[PayneTrain]

I think by the time that you are a highly-experienced junior or senior on the team, you need to begin entering a mentor's school of thought. You can relate really well with the kids if you give off the impression that you know what is best without saying it, and asking them questions about what they think. They can feel a connection with you being closer to their age, but you give off a vibe that you know what to do, as you've been in their exact positions before.

You sacrifice a lot of subjectivity, but you leave every meeting feeling satisfied.

It sounds like a mentor on your team and yourself are taking two wildly different approaches to the season. I think it would be best for you to reel in your "shoving" into a scary pit of complexity, and just nudge them down the hill on their bicycle. The team will realize how far they can get with just a nudge.

You owe it to yourself and your team to be the best you can be for everyone involved. Sometimes being a great teammate means sacrificing a bit of your philosophy in order to understand and appreciate theirs.

[davidthefat]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I think by the time that you are a highly-experienced junior or senior on the team, you need to begin entering a mentor's school of thought. You can relate really well with the kids if you give off the impression that you know what is best without saying it, and asking them questions about what they think. They can feel a connection with you being closer to their age, but you give off a vibe that you know what to do, as you've been in their exact positions before.

You sacrifice a lot of subjectivity, but you leave every meeting feeling satisfied.

It sounds like a mentor on your team and yourself are taking two wildly different approaches to the season. I think it would be best for you to reel in your "shoving" into a scary pit of complexity, and just nudge them down the hill on their bicycle. The team will realize how far they can get with just a nudge.

You owe it to yourself and your team to be the best you can be for everyone involved. Sometimes being a great teammate means sacrificing a bit of your philosophy in order to understand and appreciate theirs.

Another mentor told me that, in life, sometimes you just have to go with the flow and stop resisting even if you know you are right.

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I think by the time that you are a highly-experienced junior or senior on the team, you need to begin entering a mentor's school of thought. You can relate really well with the kids if you give off the impression that you know what is best without saying it, and asking them questions about what they think. They can feel a connection with you being closer to their age, but you give off a vibe that you know what to do, as you've been in their exact positions before.

You sacrifice a lot of subjectivity, but you leave every meeting feeling satisfied.

It sounds like a mentor on your team and yourself are taking two wildly different approaches to the season. I think it would be best for you to reel in your "shoving" into a scary pit of complexity, and just nudge them down the hill on their bicycle. The team will realize how far they can get with just a nudge.

You owe it to yourself and your team to be the best you can be for everyone involved. Sometimes being a great teammate means sacrificing a bit of your philosophy in order to understand and appreciate theirs.

agreed

I have been here before and it nearly destroyed me. In fact, the issues in this thread are part of the reason why I currently not an active mentor.

as A student, I was in the exact same position. First to arrive, last to leave; I put in a lot of effort. often I would not get much lunch on build season Saturdays since I always finished my work (or came to a stopping point) before I ate.

As for the "told you so" thing, been there, done that. what you have to do is swallow your pride and move on; bickering seldom brings progress.

sadly, this level of involvement came to kill me as a mentor. I had a hard time letting go of where I was as a student. I had already done that with my electronics position; most of that was done by a well trained freshman at the point of my departure.

Programming on the other hand was the killer, as all 3 student programmers graduated and the new programming team was all rookies who knew nothing in the way of programming or labview. Apparently there was a miscommunication on what my mentor roles were and weren't and well, I was put in a position where I was essentially the so called "bad guy." At that point, I chose to leave rather than be left.

This issue wasn't entirely why I left but was a good part of why, and perhaps at the core of why.

My advice to a mentor in said position is to take a break. be it a week, a month, or in my case, a build season (or longer). It sounds cruel, (and I might some bad rep for saying this), but sometimes mentors need time off to reset and try again. A mentor who doesn't let the students take command of the design has little place on a team.

In my eyes, the ideal mentor is there to help design and teach and inspire. In a way mentors should be like GPS units. they guide the driver on where to go and when, but it is up to the driver to steer the car and chose when and when not to follow the suggestions.