Go to Post Facebook for FIRST already exists. It's called Facebook :) - dcarr [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-01-2012, 22:58
Unsung FIRST Hero
Karthik Karthik is offline
VEX Robotics GDC Chairman
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,347
Karthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Basketball Strategy Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald View Post
And Karthik, are you MCing FLR again this year?
Unfortunately, FLR ended up being scheduled on the same weekend as the Greater Toronto Regional East. As such, I will not be able to make the trip down to Rochester. It's too bad, I'll miss seeing the teams and people I've gotten to know while MCing there in 2009 and 2011
__________________
:: Karthik Kanagasabapathy ::
"Enthusiasm is one of the most powerful engines of success. When you do a thing, do it with all your might. Put your whole soul into it. Stamp it with your own personality. Be active, be energetic, be enthusiastic and faithful and you will accomplish your object. Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm" -- R.W. Emerson
My TEDx Talk - The Subtle Secrets of Success
Full disclosure: I work for IFI and VEX Robotics, and am the Chairman of the VEX Robotics and VEX IQ Game Design Committees
.
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-01-2012, 23:04
pfreivald's Avatar
pfreivald pfreivald is offline
Registered User
AKA: Patrick Freivald
FRC #1551 (The Grapes of Wrath)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Naples, NY
Posts: 2,304
pfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Basketball Strategy Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik View Post
Unfortunately, FLR ended up being scheduled on the same weekend as the Greater Toronto Regional East. As such, I will not be able to make the trip down to Rochester. It's too bad, I'll miss seeing the teams and people I've gotten to know while MCing there in 2009 and 2011
We lose 2053, 217, and Karthik all in one year?

Alas, we'll have to have fun anyway...
__________________
Patrick Freivald -- Mentor
Team 1551
"The Grapes of Wrath"
Bausch & Lomb, PTC Corporation, and Naples High School

I write books, too!
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-01-2012, 23:30
Laaba 80 Laaba 80 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Joey
FRC #1714 (MORE Robotics)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 495
Laaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Basketball Strategy Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Hibner View Post
In the NBA, you are correct. Rick Pitino had a lot of Kentucky teams ranked #1 consistently using the 3 pointer as a primary shot. John Beilein has been trying to do it at Michigan.
Its much harder to make a living with 3s in the NBA, as the 3 point line is moved back about 3 ft from the college line.

The Wisconsin Badgers are a team that relies heavily on the 3 pointer, and defense. They lead the nation in defense, only allowing 48.5 ppg. They are really hit or miss on offense though. If they make the 3s, they will win, but then they have games where they shoot 10% from 3. This strategy has been very successful for them, they are consistently a ranked team (except now), and they had a #1 ranking during the season a few years back.
__________________
Driving Record - 75-43-8
Coaching Record - 92-65
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-01-2012, 23:30
dtengineering's Avatar
dtengineering dtengineering is offline
Teaching Teachers to Teach Tech
AKA: Jason Brett
no team (British Columbia FRC teams)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 1,833
dtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond reputedtengineering has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Basketball Strategy Question

The NBA has some interesting stats on this matter.

For instance the highest all-time career three point shooting percentage is Steve Kerr, who made 726/1599 shots for 45.5%.

Steve Nash, a local favorite, is averaging 1577/3678 for 42.9%.

Take either one of those guys, and you'd have to shoot 65% from inside the line to keep up with them.

But a big guy like Shaq, who has the second highest all-time field goal percentage (if not foul shot percentage...) only hits 58.2% of the time. However... that is based on 11,330/19,457 shots.

So yeah, given an average shot attempt, it is better to have Nash shoot for three than Shaq shoot for two. It's just that Shaq gets about four or five times as many "average shot attempts" as Nash.

Anyway, this is the sort thing I have time to look up now that I don't have a team... sigh.

Jason

P.S. Someone mentioned that a missed 3 created a rebounding opportunity. So does a missed 2.
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 16-01-2012, 23:51
Laaba 80 Laaba 80 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Joey
FRC #1714 (MORE Robotics)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 495
Laaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond reputeLaaba 80 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Basketball Strategy Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtengineering View Post
The NBA has some interesting stats on this matter.

For instance the highest all-time career three point shooting percentage is Steve Kerr, who made 726/1599 shots for 45.5%.

Steve Nash, a local favorite, is averaging 1577/3678 for 42.9%.

Take either one of those guys, and you'd have to shoot 65% from inside the line to keep up with them.

But a big guy like Shaq, who has the second highest all-time field goal percentage (if not foul shot percentage...) only hits 58.2% of the time. However... that is based on 11,330/19,457 shots.

So yeah, given an average shot attempt, it is better to have Nash shoot for three than Shaq shoot for two. It's just that Shaq gets about four or five times as many "average shot attempts" as Nash.

Anyway, this is the sort thing I have time to look up now that I don't have a team... sigh.

Jason

P.S. Someone mentioned that a missed 3 created a rebounding opportunity. So does a missed 2.
Also keep in mind that the big guys have a greater chance of getting fouled, and going to the FT line. Despite Shaq's awful FT shooting, he still has over twice as many career FTs made than Nash
__________________
Driving Record - 75-43-8
Coaching Record - 92-65
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-01-2012, 07:53
Chris Hibner's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Chris Hibner Chris Hibner is offline
Eschewing Obfuscation Since 1990
AKA: Lars Kamen's Roadie
FRC #0051 (Wings of Fire)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1997
Location: Canton, MI
Posts: 1,488
Chris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond reputeChris Hibner has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Basketball Strategy Question

For the high school students who haven't had probability and statistics yet: sorry. There has been a number of mentions of "expected value" without any explaination. I'm sure wikipedia would clear that up with a search, but here's the quick explanation of it:

Expected value is used in probability. It means basically "how many points can you expect PER SHOT".

Mathematically, it is the probability multiplied by the value.

For example: in basketball, it's typical for a team to make 50% of their two point shots (probability of 0.5), and 40% of their three-pointers (probability of 0.4). Then the two types of shots have the following expected values:

Two pointer = 0.5 * 2 points => 1 point

Three pointer = 0.4 * 3 points => 1.2 points

This shows that the expected value of the three point shot is higher, which means teams should be taking more threes and less twos. This says that you're expected to score 20% more points for each trip down the court by using the three. In a game that averages 100 points, taking nothing but threes should theoretically score you 20 more points than if you took only two pointers.

Anyway, back to the discussion.
__________________
-
An ounce of perception is worth a pound of obscure.

Last edited by Chris Hibner : 17-01-2012 at 07:59.
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-01-2012, 15:42
Coach Norm Coach Norm is offline
Team 2468 Coach/Adviser
AKA: Norman Morgan
FRC #2468 (Team Appreciate)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 444
Coach Norm has a reputation beyond reputeCoach Norm has a reputation beyond reputeCoach Norm has a reputation beyond reputeCoach Norm has a reputation beyond reputeCoach Norm has a reputation beyond reputeCoach Norm has a reputation beyond reputeCoach Norm has a reputation beyond reputeCoach Norm has a reputation beyond reputeCoach Norm has a reputation beyond reputeCoach Norm has a reputation beyond reputeCoach Norm has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Basketball Strategy Question

Lots of good discussion here on basketball strategy. Having coached and played basketball for my entire career (21 years teaching) before going into robotics, I must say I am thoroughly enjoying the points being discussed.

BTW, I never had a professional coach spend any time in my practices, but I know have 12 professionals who volunteer with my students on a daily basis.

I think it is very hard to compare this game to the real game of basketball. The number of balls alone makes it more difficult to compare but also because the height of the goal is what determines the difficulty of the shot. Basketball itself is determined by the distance from the goal for the shot's success.

I believe one reason to having more mid range shots than three pointers is that coaches want to put the opposing team in the shooting penalty. You get more fouls called closer to the basket than out around the three point line.

As a coach, I used the inside/close range only as well as more long range shots but it always depended on my personnel I had on my team since I was a high school basketball coach. Play with what skills you have on your team, I see this same strategy employed at the higher levels of FRC in contest. Not all teams are composed of the same type player (robot).

Shooting more three pointers can definitely impact the flow of the game and strategy. In Texas, getting to the playoffs depended on a series of regular season games. I remember a well respected coach commenting to me about a team who depended on threes as there strategy: "You must do it for seven games in a row to win a championship." As several of you have eluded to, human factors begin to play a major part in missed shots, streaks, etc.

I know that Rick Pitino had the philosophy that the worst shot in basketball was a long two pointer where the player was standing on the three point line. He would even sub for these players. Why waste a shot that six inches would have made a difference in the point total.

Wow, what a fun game and conversation.
__________________
FRC 2468 Team Lead 2008 - Present

Win The Day!
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-01-2012, 15:52
Peter Matteson's Avatar
Peter Matteson Peter Matteson is offline
Ambitious but rubbish!
FRC #0177 (Bobcat Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: South Windsor, CT
Posts: 1,653
Peter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond reputePeter Matteson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Basketball Strategy Question

Ike, I suggest some light reading, 700 pages or so......
This book explains a lot of what you're interested in with the history of the NBA section where the ABA/ABA merger and subsequent rule changes are adressed. Unfortunately Bill Simmons is rather long winded in his writting so it's hard to summarize this much more than Karthik did above.

http://www.amazon.com/Book-Basketbal...6833166&sr=8-1
__________________
2011 Championship Finalists/Archimedes Division Championships w/ 2016 & 781
2010 Championship Winners/Newton Division Champions
Thank-you 294 & 67

2009 Newton Division Champions w/ 1507 & 121
2008 Archimedes Division Champions w/ 1124 & 1024
2007 Championship Winners/Newton Division Champions w/190, 987 & 177 The Wall of Maroon
2006 Galileo Division Champions w/ 1126 & 201
www.bobcatrobotics.org
"If you can't do it with brains, it won't be done with hours." - Clarence "Kelly" Johnson
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 17-01-2012, 17:27
IKE's Avatar
IKE IKE is offline
Not so Custom User Title
AKA: Isaac Rife
no team (N/A)
Team Role: Mechanical
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,153
IKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Basketball Strategy Question

707 pages at $7.50 for a brand new hard cover... If I value the cover art at $0.43, then this material is worth $0.01 per page...

I read Moneyball over Christmas break after seeing/enjoying the movie. It remined me how I loved baseball in my youth. I may have to give this a read after the championship.
  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 18-01-2012, 22:58
Unsung FIRST Hero
Karthik Karthik is offline
VEX Robotics GDC Chairman
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,347
Karthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond reputeKarthik has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Basketball Strategy Question

Ike,

Some more reading for you. Within the basketball sabremetrics community, there has been a lot of talk and research on the topic of efficiency. Shot location plays into this largely. Take a look at the following chart:

http://hoopdata.com/teamshotlocs.aspx

Notice that instead of three point percentage, they use a metric called "Effective Field Goal Percentage" or eFG%. This metric takes into account that three pointers are worth more than 2 points, and the shots are weighted accordingly. From this table you see that the most valuable shot in the NBA is still the dunk/layup with an expected value of 1.26 points this season. The three pointer is next with an EV of 1.01, with everything between being around 0.75.

This just scratches the surface of the analysis, but I figured it would give you a good taste of what's being studied, and some insights into effective NBA shot selection. I'm sure you'll find a lot more interesting questions and answers as you dig deeper.
__________________
:: Karthik Kanagasabapathy ::
"Enthusiasm is one of the most powerful engines of success. When you do a thing, do it with all your might. Put your whole soul into it. Stamp it with your own personality. Be active, be energetic, be enthusiastic and faithful and you will accomplish your object. Nothing great was ever achieved without enthusiasm" -- R.W. Emerson
My TEDx Talk - The Subtle Secrets of Success
Full disclosure: I work for IFI and VEX Robotics, and am the Chairman of the VEX Robotics and VEX IQ Game Design Committees
.
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:45.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi