CANJaguar

[Mike Copioli]

Originally Posted by dyanoshak

Bryscus is correct:

We found that 20' of cable, 100 ohm termination resistors, and ~16 Jags on a bus is a good limit for reliable operation. It may be possible to get more Jags, but the cable lengths will have to be shorter.

-David

David,

I have to disagree with you on this. According to CAN spec IS0 11898:1993(E) Table 15, the maximum cable distance for 1Mbit/second is 40 Meters not 20 feet.

We have also tested at distances much greater than 20 feet without issue using 120 Ohm's of termination on each end of the BUS.

FYI a termination resistor of 100 ohms is outside of the spec. Teams using 120 ohms resistors should have no issues related to signal reflection.

[Bryscus]

Originally Posted by Mike Copioli

David,

I have to disagree with you on this. According to CAN spec IS0 11898:1993(E) Table 15, the maximum cable distance for 1Mbit/second is 40 Meters not 20 feet.

We have also tested at distances much greater than 20 feet without issue using 120 Ohm's of termination on each end of the BUS.

FYI a termination resistor of 100 ohms is outside of the spec. Teams using 120 ohms resistors should have no issues related to signal reflection.

From the getting started guide:

Total Cable Length
(maximum)
20 ft / 6.1m Tip: Start with this length of bulk cable and cut all
segments from it to ensure compliance.

Termination Resistance 100 At each end of the network.

Just quoting specs.

- Bryce

[Kodiak]

Total Cable Length
(maximum)
20 ft / 6.1m Tip: Start with this length of bulk cable and cut all
segments from it to ensure compliance.

Termination Resistance 100 At each end of the network.

Just quoting specs.

Hmm, it may be that 20 feet is the best length for the best outcome, but if you need more it may not be THE limit.

[Mike Copioli]

Originally Posted by Bryscus

From the getting started guide:

Total Cable Length
(maximum)
20 ft / 6.1m Tip: Start with this length of bulk cable and cut all
segments from it to ensure compliance.

Termination Resistance 100 At each end of the network.

Just quoting specs.

- Bryce

The 'Getting Started Guide' is not the CAN spec, IS0 11898:1993(E) is.

[dyanoshak]

Originally Posted by Mike Copioli

David,

I have to disagree with you on this. According to CAN spec IS0 11898:1993(E) Table 15, the maximum cable distance for 1Mbit/second is 40 Meters not 20 feet.

We have also tested at distances much greater than 20 feet without issue using 120 Ohm's of termination on each end of the BUS.

FYI a termination resistor of 100 ohms is outside of the spec. Teams using 120 ohms resistors should have no issues related to signal reflection.

Yes, that is what the CAN spec says. However, I am talking about what we specify for Jaguar.

They differ in the following ways:

• CAN Spec states 40 meter cable lengths using twisted pair cable
  • Jaguar uses non-twisted modular cable
• CAN Spec states 120 ohm terminators
  • TI specifies 100 ohm terminators for the following reasons:

The concern is with bit timing, not signal reflections.

Ideally each Jaguar would be configured with its own specific bit-timing parameters (parameters that define when the CAN module samples the bit). These parameters depend on a lot of factors including location on the bus, bus impedance, the number of drivers on the bus, etc.

In this specific application (FRC) a lot of those factors are unknown. What works for one setup may not work as well for another. During our testing of Jaguar we found that as the number of Jaguars increased and the cable lengths got longer, some Jaguars would not sample the bits correctly. We saw that the bus was taking longer to transition from the dominant to recessive states fast enough when every CAN driver on the bus was driving dominant.

We were able to successfully improve the timing by lowering the resistance of the terminator to 100 ohms. The lower resistance helped pull the CANH and CANL to the recessive state much faster. We also found that minimizing the cable lengths between the Jaguars helped a bit too.

The bottom line:

TI specifies 100 ohm termination resistors and ~20' total of cabling. This differs from the official ISO specification for CAN, but should ensure that teams have the best experience with the Jaguar when using CAN.

-David

[Mike Copioli]

Originally Posted by dyanoshak

Yes, that is what the CAN spec says. However, I am talking about what we specify for Jaguar.

They differ in the following ways:

• CAN Spec states 40 meter cable lengths using twisted pair cable
  • Jaguar uses non-twisted modular cable
• CAN Spec states 120 ohm terminators
  • TI specifies 100 ohm terminators for the following reasons:

The concern is with bit timing, not signal reflections.

Ideally each Jaguar would be configured with its own specific bit-timing parameters (parameters that define when the CAN module samples the bit). These parameters depend on a lot of factors including location on the bus, bus impedance, the number of drivers on the bus, etc.

In this specific application (FRC) a lot of those factors are unknown. What works for one setup may not work as well for another. During our testing of Jaguar we found that as the number of Jaguars increased and the cable lengths got longer, some Jaguars would not sample the bits correctly. We saw that the bus was taking longer to transition from the dominant to recessive states fast enough when every CAN driver on the bus was driving dominant.

We were able to successfully improve the timing by lowering the resistance of the terminator to 100 ohms. The lower resistance helped pull the CANH and CANL to the recessive state much faster. We also found that minimizing the cable lengths between the Jaguars helped a bit too.

The bottom line:

TI specifies 100 ohm termination resistors and ~20' total of cabling. This differs from the official ISO specification for CAN, but should ensure that teams have the best experience with the Jaguar when using CAN.

-David

Dave,

Our findings tell a different story. I would be happy to share them with you.