Go to Post The robot is NOT a lie. - Rick TYler [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Technical > Motors
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-01-2012, 18:20
Jim Wilks Jim Wilks is offline
Electrical Engineer
AKA: Jim Wilks
FRC #1360 (Orbit Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Oakville, ON
Posts: 1,186
Jim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond repute
Recycled Automotive Motors

OK, we've finally got the go-ahead to use recycled automotive motors. As per [R48] They can be "up to 2 window lift, seat, windshield wiper or door motors obtained through either the FIRST-Automotive Recyclers Association partnership or from a prior years’ KOP."

This is a excellent opportunity to get a better motor for that power shooter, etc.

How do we determine what are good (low weight vs high power) candidates for this or any other robot application?

Other than trial and error, I'm not sure where to start. Little or no specifications are typically listed in car manuals or even on the motor itself.

Anyone have any experience or connections to figure this out a bit more scientifically???

Jim

Last edited by Jim Wilks : 11-01-2012 at 18:24.
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-01-2012, 19:25
Teched3 Teched3 is offline
Hodge1
FRC #0175 (BuzzRobotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 319
Teched3 has much to be proud ofTeched3 has much to be proud ofTeched3 has much to be proud ofTeched3 has much to be proud ofTeched3 has much to be proud ofTeched3 has much to be proud ofTeched3 has much to be proud ofTeched3 has much to be proud ofTeched3 has much to be proud of
Smile Re: Recycled Automotive Motors

Do you really want to use a recycled motor on your competition robot, where you have no idea how much it has been used, or hanging around? Might be OK for practice bot or prototyping. You are right though, in that you might find one that is more powerful or in between those that are offered in the kit as a more effective choice. what about having spares if you do use them. the rules say nothing about obtaining spares.
__________________
Sweat the details
Why is there never enough time to do it right, but always enough time to do it again!
Even if you're on the right track, if you sit still, you'll get run over!!!
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-01-2012, 19:31
Karibou Karibou is offline
Steel is love. Steel is life.
AKA: Kara Bakowski
FRC #0341 (Miss Daisy)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Conshohocken, PA
Posts: 1,855
Karibou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond reputeKaribou has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Karibou
Re: Recycled Automotive Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teched3 View Post
Do you really want to use a recycled motor on your competition robot, where you have no idea how much it has been used, or hanging around? Might be OK for practice bot or prototyping. You are right though, in that you might find one that is more powerful or in between those that are offered in the kit as a more effective choice. what about having spares if you do use them. the rules say nothing about obtaining spares.
If you're getting a motor from a car, I sure hope it would be in good working condition (unless it's coming from a very old car). I don't know about you, but I expect my door locks to last the life of my car...being on a FRC robot shouldn't kill them so easily.
__________________
Kara Bakowski
Michigan Technological University///Materials Science and Engineering '15///Go Huskies! #tenacity
kabakowski(at)gmail(dot)com
FRC 341 (2016-present): Mechanical/build mentor
Volunteer (2010-present): MAR Seneca '17, FTC Hat Tricks Qualifier '16, Brunswick Eruption '16, MAR Montgomery '16, MAR Westtown '16 Portcullis Victim, MAR Springside-Chestnut Hill '16, Ramp Riot '15 '16, FiM Escanaba District '14 '15, MidKnight Mayhem '13 '15 '16, FiM Detroit District '13, IRI '10 '12, FiM Waterford District '11 '12, MARC '12, CMP Galileo '11
FRC 1189 (2008-2011): Team Captain, Pit Crew, Website group leader, Team Education group leader, Proud Alum. We've got spirit, yes we do...


WMWBS '10 '11
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-01-2012, 20:17
Jim Wilks Jim Wilks is offline
Electrical Engineer
AKA: Jim Wilks
FRC #1360 (Orbit Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Oakville, ON
Posts: 1,186
Jim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond reputeJim Wilks has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Recycled Automotive Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teched3 View Post
Do you really want to use a recycled motor on your competition robot, where you have no idea how much it has been used, or hanging around?:
If, for example, I determine that a particular GM seat motor is good, I could use a seat motor from a 2011 model GM car. Recycled does not necessarly mean old or unreliable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teched3 View Post
what about having spares if you do use them. the rules say nothing about obtaining spares.
The donation from the ARA is for 4 "free" motors, of which you can use 2 on this years robot. That's 100% spares. If you want more spares, there's nothing stopping you from getting more simply by paying for them.

Last edited by Jim Wilks : 11-01-2012 at 20:19.
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-01-2012, 20:25
Ether's Avatar
Ether Ether is offline
systems engineer (retired)
no team
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Rookie Year: 1969
Location: US
Posts: 8,125
Ether has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond reputeEther has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Recycled Automotive Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Teched3 View Post
Do you really want to use a recycled motor on your competition robot
Couldn't be any worse than a brand-new shorted Banebots.
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 11-01-2012, 22:21
DonRotolo's Avatar
DonRotolo DonRotolo is offline
Back to humble
FRC #0832
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Atlanta GA
Posts: 7,019
DonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond reputeDonRotolo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Recycled Automotive Motors

Recycled doesn't mean worn out.

The OP asked how to figure out what would be most powerful, also considering weight.

You can't do this scientifically, at least not easily, since specs are hard to come by. So, we take an empirical approach.

Window motors will be the weakest. Seat motors will be almost as weak. Door motors are only used in certain vehicles, but they are more powerful. Wiper motors are in every car, and are generally most powerful, but not always. Bigger cars have bigger wipers, which need bigger motors. Luxury cars don't have to design as close to the financial limit as economy cars, and they make their reputation with longevity.

The most massive wiper motor I have ever seen is from the Mercedes models that use a single arm to wipe the whole windshield. These are E-Class cars from 1986-95, and the newer E-Class from 96-2002, along with the S-Class 92-99 and SL 1990-2002-ish. There are others, but those I'm familiar with, and those models are plentiful.
__________________

I am N2IRZ - What's your callsign?
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2012, 03:43
Mr V's Avatar
Mr V Mr V is offline
FIRST Senior Mentor Washington
FRC #5588 (Reign)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Maple Valley Wa
Posts: 997
Mr V has a reputation beyond reputeMr V has a reputation beyond reputeMr V has a reputation beyond reputeMr V has a reputation beyond reputeMr V has a reputation beyond reputeMr V has a reputation beyond reputeMr V has a reputation beyond reputeMr V has a reputation beyond reputeMr V has a reputation beyond reputeMr V has a reputation beyond reputeMr V has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Recycled Automotive Motors

One thing to keep in mind is that window, seat and door motors are not designed for a 100% duty cycle. Wiper motors are.

The strongest motors you will find will be those for Ford and GM Suv's and Chrysler minivan's "5th door". Those have to lift a ~100lb "door" w/o the benefit of much leverage. Can't say I've ever messed with one and held it in my hand though. As long as the recycler writes door instead of hatch on the receipt they should be legal, guess it depends on their and FIRST's definition of the opening on the back of such a vehicle.

Sliding door motors do move a heave door but they are sliding on tracks not being lifted.

Next will be window motors from older GM and Ford cars, up to late 80's/early 90's depending on model, they have near CIM sized motors and have to work against a very strong spring to lower the window and their mechanisms are kind of crude. Pivots are often steel on steel w/o grease after the first few years. Both are quite durable too. The problem is that they incorporate a safety feature in their drive mechanisms to limit torque. In the Fords it's a plastic gear that wears out and gets brittle with age as do the "rollers" that transmit the power to the output gear. Their failure rate is so high that you can walk into most auto parts store and find the gear set in the HELP! Section. Depending on the model line they are found in up to early 90's vehicles.

Seat motors from the older (similar age range as the window motors above) GM and Ford cars are also quite large, again they are near CIM sized and the tilt/height motors work with little leverage to lift hundreds of pounds.

Wiper motors aren't a good choice IHMO, often they are grounded through the chassis since they aren't intended to be reversed. The park function could be useful for some applications though but could make for problems should you want to try to reverse it. You will want one from a vehicle that doesn't hide it's wipers under the hood as they often have a secondary gear train so they stay in the "up" position when used on the intermittent function. Also note that many have an unusual way of obtaining low speed. Power is required on 2 wires for low speed and 1 wire for high speed. Many late model GM wiper motors incorporate an on board processor to read the resistance of the switch circuit in a particular position to determine it's operation.
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-01-2012, 14:58
Matt C's Avatar
Matt C Matt C is offline
Registered User
FRC #1468 (J-Birds)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Islip Terrace, NY
Posts: 396
Matt C has a reputation beyond reputeMatt C has a reputation beyond reputeMatt C has a reputation beyond reputeMatt C has a reputation beyond reputeMatt C has a reputation beyond reputeMatt C has a reputation beyond reputeMatt C has a reputation beyond reputeMatt C has a reputation beyond reputeMatt C has a reputation beyond reputeMatt C has a reputation beyond reputeMatt C has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Matt C
Re: Recycled Automotive Motors

Don't forget the most important part about 4.1.8 section I.

Quote:
I. up to 2 window lift, seat, windshield wiper or door motors obtained through either the FIRST-Automotive Recyclers Association partnership or from a prior years' KOP
emphasis mine.

and I would have no problem using used motors taken out of salvaged cars.
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-01-2012, 22:52
Mike Martus's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Mike Martus Mike Martus is offline
Registered User
FRC #0051 (Wings of Fire)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Pontiac Michigan
Posts: 1,187
Mike Martus has a reputation beyond reputeMike Martus has a reputation beyond reputeMike Martus has a reputation beyond reputeMike Martus has a reputation beyond reputeMike Martus has a reputation beyond reputeMike Martus has a reputation beyond reputeMike Martus has a reputation beyond reputeMike Martus has a reputation beyond reputeMike Martus has a reputation beyond reputeMike Martus has a reputation beyond reputeMike Martus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Recycled Automotive Motors

Has anyone contacted a recycler listed and get a usefull conversation from them?

Did anyone get any motors?

Or is this another " Looks great on paper, but in reality was just a Gimmick by FIRST with no substance".

* disappointed that there was not a single location to get the surplus motors. The one I called said to come and take it off myself - they could not be bothered!
__________________
Mike Martus
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 15-01-2012, 23:14
mrmummert's Avatar
mrmummert mrmummert is offline
Registered User
AKA: hank
FRC #1610 (bot)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: franklin
Posts: 353
mrmummert is a splendid one to beholdmrmummert is a splendid one to beholdmrmummert is a splendid one to beholdmrmummert is a splendid one to beholdmrmummert is a splendid one to beholdmrmummert is a splendid one to beholdmrmummert is a splendid one to behold
Send a message via Yahoo to mrmummert
Re: Recycled Automotive Motors

These were in past years KOP and we never had a reason to use them, but we could this year? I ask as we have a use for them this year.
http://www.am-autoparts.com/Cadillac...87/312665.html
__________________
winner vcu 2006,winner vcu 2013,2014,2015
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-01-2012, 17:21
IKE's Avatar
IKE IKE is offline
Not so Custom User Title
AKA: Isaac Rife
no team (N/A)
Team Role: Mechanical
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,152
IKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond reputeIKE has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Recycled Automotive Motors

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Martus View Post
Has anyone contacted a recycler listed and get a usefull conversation from them?
I haven't gotten any yet , but was planning on making calls this week. Has anyone found any cool motors? I was thinking a liftgate motor might be a neat motor to try.
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-01-2012, 18:57
MrBasse MrBasse is offline
Registered User
FRC #3572 (Wavelength)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Norton Shores, MI
Posts: 687
MrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Recycled Automotive Motors

Keep in mind that most, if not all, power lift gate motors are assisted by gas struts on a minivan. So they aren't really lifting all that weight by themselves, just like you don't when you use a non power lift gate.
__________________
Andrew Basse
Coach - FRC Team 3572 - Wavelength
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 22-01-2012, 21:02
marccenter's Avatar
marccenter marccenter is offline
Registered User
FRC #3548 (RoboRavens2)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Royal Oak
Posts: 406
marccenter has a spectacular aura aboutmarccenter has a spectacular aura about
Smile Re: Recycled Automotive Motors

Mike,
I called Schram GM Auto Parts in Waterford during the first week of the season and the one person I talked to said it was new to him. He encouraged me to bring the paper certificate about the program in to the store.
So, I guess, a word to the wise - check your source of recycled parts because the whole FIRST motor recycle program may be new to them.
__________________
Marc Center
FIRST FRC Mentor/Coach - Team 3548 Royal Oak RoboRavens#2 - on Sabbatical 2017 season
marc.center@gmail.com
Mobile: 248-255-7377

Last edited by marccenter : 22-01-2012 at 21:02. Reason: accuracy
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 15:04.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi