Practice bot morality

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Craig Roys

So change your allotted time...set you own robot completion date with benchmarks to hit along the way, and stick to it. This does require team buy in and holding people accountable for getting tasks done on time (or explaining why they weren't able to and proposing how to catch back up).

One compromise solution that I think would be a good balance between the current status quo and a "no ship date" option would be to still require bag-n-tag on a specific date, but have one or two access windows per each subsequent week available to all teams.

If all teams were granted the opportunity to have up to 2x 8-hour access windows per week following the ship date, this would allow all teams to have the ability to practice driving, add/modify mechanisms, work on programming, add parts that may have arrived after "ship date", and would overall mitigate the "need" that many teams have for a practice robot. At the same time, these access windows would be a limitation to prevent teams from burning themselves out by working on the robot every day from Kickoff to competition.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

One compromise solution that I think would be a good balance between the current status quo and a "no ship date" option would be to still require bag-n-tag on a specific date, but have one or two access windows per each subsequent week available to all teams.

If all teams were granted the opportunity to have up to 2x 8-hour access windows per week following the ship date, this would allow all teams to have the ability to practice driving, add/modify mechanisms, work on programming, add parts that may have arrived after "ship date", and would overall mitigate the "need" that many teams have for a practice robot. At the same time, these access windows would be a limitation to prevent teams from burning themselves out by working on the robot every day from Kickoff to competition.

Thats unenforcable, and there will always be alligations of "they kept it out far more than 8 hours".

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Thats unenforcable, and there will always be alligations of "they kept it out far more than 8 hours".

Tell that to Michigan?

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Thats unenforcable, and there will always be alligations of "they kept it out far more than 8 hours".

The current 'bag and tag' system is unenforcible. I also think it would be ignorant to believe that absolutely every team obeys this rule.

[Clinton Bolinger]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

The current 'bag and tag' system is unenforcible. I also think it would be ignorant to believe that absolutely every team obeys this rule.

That is why it is most likely just a matter of time before FIRST goes to an unlimited build season.

As for Week 1 competitions having a "disadvantage", I would have to disagree because week 1 teams are still figuring out how to play the game. If you focus your design on one task an do it well (Minibot 2011, Hanging 2010), you could have a better chance winning a week 1 event rather then a week 5 event.

As for overloading Mentors and Students, that is something that all teams need to manage. Everything in life needs to be done in moderation, even FIRST.

-Clinton-

[SteveGPage]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

The current 'bag and tag' system is unenforcible. I also think it would be ignorant to believe that absolutely every team obeys this rule.

While I agree that we cannot say that absolutely every team obeys this rule, I would say most do. There is something to be said for having mentors not only model what it means to be an engineer, but to also model what it means to have integrity. It would be more important to lose with integrity than win without it.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by SteveGPage

While I agree that we cannot say that absolutely every team obeys this rule, I would say most do. There is something to be said for having mentors not only model what it means to be an engineer, but to also model what it means to have integrity. It would be more important to lose with integrity than win without it.

I completely agree with you.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by SteveGPage

While I agree that we cannot say that absolutely every team obeys this rule, I would say most do. There is something to be said for having mentors not only model what it means to be an engineer, but to also model what it means to have integrity. It would be more important to lose with integrity than win without it.

I've seen instances in which students have confronted mentors who were engaging/about to engage in what the students viewed as unethical behavior. Mentors aren't the only role models out there. Inspiration is a two-way street.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

The current 'bag and tag' system is unenforcible. I also think it would be ignorant to believe that absolutely every team obeys this rule.

For what it's worth, there was a team at one of the Canadian Regionals in 2010 that admitted to working on their robot after bag day (Built a 469 copy is memory serves me correctly) and they were still allowed to compete. As far as I know, there was not, and is not a mechanism in place to address instances like this - by the letter of the rule, an offending team should not be allowed to compete with that machine, but it's hard to turn a team down at an event.

Originally Posted by Taylor

Inspiration is a two-way street.

Spotlighted.

[AdamHeard]

Who are we kidding? Most elite teams work just as much after ship as they do before; the only thing stopping other teams from doing so is their lack of desire to do so.

Making it an open event will hardly "force" other teams to work more.

If they do an open style, they should just shorten the time between kickoff and week 1 events.

[Craig Roys]

I know that we follow the build restrictions rules very strictly - to the point of counting down seconds (if needed) to to when the bag needs to be sealed. I like to believe that most every team follows these rules also. Either way I don't waste any energy worrying about it because the only thing I can control is what my team does.

The only time I worry about what other teams are doing is when I'm looking for ways to improve the way our team operates. Do I envy the perennial powerhouse teams? Yes. Do I begrudge them? Definitely not. I try to emulate what they do. From my experience, the thing that separates the powerhouse teams from the rest of the pack, more than even money, is their work ethic and preparedness. If we're not happy with our level of success (or lack thereof), we know we just need to work harder to get where we want to be.

[1986titans]

I don't think an unlimited build is the way to go. For those teams already struggling to get a robot done, it really won't do much at all and I have a feeling it could just make the first day of regionals/districts even more hectic for those teams.

With the current system, you can only bring to the competition 30# (I'm not sitting here with a manual open) of what are essentially "improvements"/spares for your robot. This keeps teams in later weeks from completely redoing a robot or something close to it after the first week, and holds your team accountable for having something done after six weeks. I like the idea of being held accountable and not being able to redo everything. I think it's more in the spirit of competition. If you could redo everything, there would eventually be a huge amount of design equality, for lack of a better term. That may sound like a good thing, but it takes some fun out of the competition too.

Cheaters will always find a way to cheat. I'd say that they simply don't get "it", with "it" the point of FIRST, if the wind up cheating.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by 1986titans

I don't think an unlimited build is the way to go. For those teams already struggling to get a robot done, it really won't do much at all and I have a feeling it could just make the first day of regionals/districts even more hectic for those teams.

With the current system, you can only bring to the competition 30# (I'm not sitting here with a manual open) of what are essentially "improvements"/spares for your robot. This keeps teams in later weeks from completely redoing a robot or something close to it after the first week, and holds your team accountable for having something done after six weeks. I like the idea of being held accountable and not being able to redo everything. I think it's more in the spirit of competition. If you could redo everything, there would eventually be a huge amount of design equality, for lack of a better term. That may sound like a good thing, but it takes some fun out of the competition too.

Cheaters will always find a way to cheat. I'd say that they simply don't get "it", with "it" the point of FIRST, if the wind up cheating.

Currently, elite teams have been able to nearly complete redo large amounts of their robot.

Within the current rules, they are the only teams really capable of doing so however.

[JesseK]

They could reduce the rule down to 10lbs or so -- just enough to bring in the CNC'ed stuff, but not enough for a drop-in full assembly. Want to iterate your design between Regionals and Champs? Then prepare to show just how elite you are by doing it in the time crunch of Championship Inspection Day.

Of course, that's unenforceable too. So maybe they should just eliminate withholding altogether except for the as-needed basis when snow removes and entire 2 weeks from the build schedules of some teams.

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by JesseK

They could reduce the rule down to 10lbs or so -- just enough to bring in the CNC'ed stuff, but not enough for a drop-in full assembly. Want to iterate your design between Regionals and Champs? Then prepare to show just how elite you are by doing it in the time crunch of Championship Inspection Day.

Of course, that's unenforceable too. So maybe they should just eliminate withholding altogether except for the as-needed basis when snow removes and entire 2 weeks from the build schedules of some teams.

This style rule makes it more difficult for all teams; Elite teams will still be able to remake systems and succed, lesser teams won't.

More regulation leads to favoring the elite teams.