Practice bot morality

[Squillo]

Originally Posted by Drivencrazy

Would you consider expedited shipping to only the continental US an unfair advantage? No probably not.

I would. But then again, we're twice removed - once from the mainland, and again from Oahu.

Yet, we persevere. 'Cause it's just to live on Kauai.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

[well articulated argument]

Very interesting points, I didn't think of it that way. You may very well be correct.

[Craig Roys]

Originally Posted by JesseK

Project schedules always grow to fill the maximum allotted time. There's a theorem or law or something in the software world that more elegantly states it.

If even 1 or 2 people on the 'team' isn't on board with arbitrarily cutting a build season down from an 'unlimited' amount of time, then they can easily convince the rest of the team that their view is better when the end of the arbitrary deadline hits. This is especially true if they're someone with a critical system that isn't finished.

So change your allotted time...set you own robot completion date with benchmarks to hit along the way, and stick to it. This does require team buy in and holding people accountable for getting tasks done on time (or explaining why they weren't able to and proposing how to catch back up).

[Bill_B]

I noted in my semi-committed review of this topic, that the FLL and FTC unlimited seasons were mentioned. Those programs have the unmentioned restriction of definite materials lists for the machinery. IoW they have the time extended but allowable components are much more restrictive than FRC. Would you be in favor of extending the build time IF the FRC components were more restricted?

[artdutra04]

Originally Posted by Craig Roys

So change your allotted time...set you own robot completion date with benchmarks to hit along the way, and stick to it. This does require team buy in and holding people accountable for getting tasks done on time (or explaining why they weren't able to and proposing how to catch back up).

One compromise solution that I think would be a good balance between the current status quo and a "no ship date" option would be to still require bag-n-tag on a specific date, but have one or two access windows per each subsequent week available to all teams.

If all teams were granted the opportunity to have up to 2x 8-hour access windows per week following the ship date, this would allow all teams to have the ability to practice driving, add/modify mechanisms, work on programming, add parts that may have arrived after "ship date", and would overall mitigate the "need" that many teams have for a practice robot. At the same time, these access windows would be a limitation to prevent teams from burning themselves out by working on the robot every day from Kickoff to competition.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by artdutra04

One compromise solution that I think would be a good balance between the current status quo and a "no ship date" option would be to still require bag-n-tag on a specific date, but have one or two access windows per each subsequent week available to all teams.

If all teams were granted the opportunity to have up to 2x 8-hour access windows per week following the ship date, this would allow all teams to have the ability to practice driving, add/modify mechanisms, work on programming, add parts that may have arrived after "ship date", and would overall mitigate the "need" that many teams have for a practice robot. At the same time, these access windows would be a limitation to prevent teams from burning themselves out by working on the robot every day from Kickoff to competition.

Thats unenforcable, and there will always be alligations of "they kept it out far more than 8 hours".

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Thats unenforcable, and there will always be alligations of "they kept it out far more than 8 hours".

Tell that to Michigan?

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Thats unenforcable, and there will always be alligations of "they kept it out far more than 8 hours".

The current 'bag and tag' system is unenforcible. I also think it would be ignorant to believe that absolutely every team obeys this rule.

[Clinton Bolinger]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

The current 'bag and tag' system is unenforcible. I also think it would be ignorant to believe that absolutely every team obeys this rule.

That is why it is most likely just a matter of time before FIRST goes to an unlimited build season.

As for Week 1 competitions having a "disadvantage", I would have to disagree because week 1 teams are still figuring out how to play the game. If you focus your design on one task an do it well (Minibot 2011, Hanging 2010), you could have a better chance winning a week 1 event rather then a week 5 event.

As for overloading Mentors and Students, that is something that all teams need to manage. Everything in life needs to be done in moderation, even FIRST.

-Clinton-

[SteveGPage]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

The current 'bag and tag' system is unenforcible. I also think it would be ignorant to believe that absolutely every team obeys this rule.

While I agree that we cannot say that absolutely every team obeys this rule, I would say most do. There is something to be said for having mentors not only model what it means to be an engineer, but to also model what it means to have integrity. It would be more important to lose with integrity than win without it.

[JamesCH95]

Originally Posted by SteveGPage

While I agree that we cannot say that absolutely every team obeys this rule, I would say most do. There is something to be said for having mentors not only model what it means to be an engineer, but to also model what it means to have integrity. It would be more important to lose with integrity than win without it.

I completely agree with you.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by SteveGPage

While I agree that we cannot say that absolutely every team obeys this rule, I would say most do. There is something to be said for having mentors not only model what it means to be an engineer, but to also model what it means to have integrity. It would be more important to lose with integrity than win without it.

I've seen instances in which students have confronted mentors who were engaging/about to engage in what the students viewed as unethical behavior. Mentors aren't the only role models out there. Inspiration is a two-way street.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by JamesCH95

The current 'bag and tag' system is unenforcible. I also think it would be ignorant to believe that absolutely every team obeys this rule.

For what it's worth, there was a team at one of the Canadian Regionals in 2010 that admitted to working on their robot after bag day (Built a 469 copy is memory serves me correctly) and they were still allowed to compete. As far as I know, there was not, and is not a mechanism in place to address instances like this - by the letter of the rule, an offending team should not be allowed to compete with that machine, but it's hard to turn a team down at an event.

Originally Posted by Taylor

Inspiration is a two-way street.

Spotlighted.

[AdamHeard]

Who are we kidding? Most elite teams work just as much after ship as they do before; the only thing stopping other teams from doing so is their lack of desire to do so.

Making it an open event will hardly "force" other teams to work more.

If they do an open style, they should just shorten the time between kickoff and week 1 events.

[Craig Roys]

I know that we follow the build restrictions rules very strictly - to the point of counting down seconds (if needed) to to when the bag needs to be sealed. I like to believe that most every team follows these rules also. Either way I don't waste any energy worrying about it because the only thing I can control is what my team does.

The only time I worry about what other teams are doing is when I'm looking for ways to improve the way our team operates. Do I envy the perennial powerhouse teams? Yes. Do I begrudge them? Definitely not. I try to emulate what they do. From my experience, the thing that separates the powerhouse teams from the rest of the pack, more than even money, is their work ethic and preparedness. If we're not happy with our level of success (or lack thereof), we know we just need to work harder to get where we want to be.