Iraq Draft

[MissAbi]

Some members of congress are pushing for a draft if we go to war with Iraq. How do guys feel about that.

I, for one, am against it. The last draft divided the upper and lower classes. Those who could afford college could stay while those who couldn't were shipped off. The last draft also resulted in a military that couldn't compete with the one we have today. If you make people do a job that they don't want to, they aren't going to do it as well as someone who wants to.

I leave in June for basic training with the Air Force and I don't want to train or work with people who don't want to be there.

[Suneet]

The old lie: Dulce et decorum est Pro patria mori

I dunno... If a close friend got drafted, I'd want to enlist. It's just that I'm too young. But yeah, I totally don't support the warriors in the White House, and won't unless those inspectors come up with some hard proof.

I doubt it will come to a draft, considering the importance of public opinion, which seems very ambivalent with Iraq, but if it did I don't think drafted people would be lesser soldiers. Less trained, quite possibly, but not half-hearted. That's what I can say with my limited reading of history.

[ChrisA]

They better not... I'm almost 18... ugh
I can only hope that like with my dad they find a reason for me not to be drafted.
(my dad was too heavy at the time to go heh)

Also do realize that public opinion is mostly people over the age of 25 (those who are free from draft) so that isn't going to be of much use.

All in all the draft itself is a good idea IMO, but only if it's necessary. Right now there are many people in the military with more enlisting each day. I can't see them needing to draft more people at this time, but then of course my opinion doesn't really matter.

Which ever way it goes somebody is going to be unhappy.

[Ian W.]

is it time to run to canada yet?

i for one, am completely against war. i don't know why, but i think it's that there's no reason to be fighting iraq. we should be making peace, not world war 3. i know that at the moment, i'm probably underweight, so i'm "safe" from any draft that could happen.

i know several ways to legally get out of the draft, and i actually know of one way i can get out of based on my religion (i'm jewish), so i'm not overly concerned. i'm more concerned with bush making a stupid mistake and screwing not only america, but the world.

feel free to call me unamerican, or whatever else you feel like, but i just don't feel like going off to die needlessly in iraq.

[DanL]

If they drafted me, I'd burn the notice and the hell with the consequences. Bush is a gun-weilding trigger-happy maniac, and this entire war is stupid. Take a look outside the U.S., outside of all the propaganda that the mainstream news feeds us every day. Popular opinion is against America now. We should abandon this outdated imperialist doctrine, take a look around, realize we're no longer immortal, and build better relations with other countries rather than continue to make more hatred. I'm telling you this: only bad will come out of this war. All great empires throughout history fell - I can't help wonder if like Rome, we're overextending our reach with this war, and I can't help wonder if this was is a precurser to our eventual decline.

As for actually fighting, I don't believe in shooting other people just because they're muslims or iraqis or whatever and so, obviously terrorists and evil in general. ( [/sarcasm] for those of you who didn't get it). I don't believe in "fighting to preserve freedom and the american way of life." The fact is, the "american way of life" is to just find someone else willing to throw his life away just so we can hold onto 19th century imperialistic beliefs and control the world's economy. The "american way of life" is to exploit others and be the richest there is - be it control global oil supplies, send South American children into sweatshops just so we can wear a cheap shiney pair of Nike's, or have our world banks promise third-world that coffee beans will cure their economic woes only to have them invest all their meager resources and labour into growing them, have the market price drop like all hell, and then say, "oops, I guess we were wrong about coffee. Now, I believe theres this large debt that you have to pay off. To hell with how you're going to do it, we want our money!" And yet, just four cups of Starbucks are so expensive than you can fill your gas tank for that price. Screw the global community, we want our money! THAT is what a draft would make you fight for. Take a look at what we have done to other countries, and it's no suprise that public opinion of the united states is so low outside our great, free borders.

I'm reminded of a bumper sticker I saw a month or two after 9/11.
"Proud to be a Bandwagon American since 9-11-01"

Someone once said something to the extent, "Kill 1 person, it's a tragedy. Kill a thousand people, it's a statistic." Dieing for your country doesn't make you a hero - it makes you a statistic. Don't get me wrong - I'm not an anarchist or anything like that. Good things do come out of this country, and that makes me appreciate it. What I'm trying to say is basically this:

If you want to prove your worth, prove it by creation, not destruction. Shooting someone does not make you a hero. Doing something for the better of society does. That is why I am involved in FIRST - I see a way to improve society with what I learn. You don't do that by picking up a gun and escalating already intense hatred.

[Matt Attallah]

I'm going to agree for the most part but...

Many people in the past has died for this country to stay the way it is (free of choice for the most part). If it was enacted and i was called upon, i'd way the choices. If i view it was needed, than i would go, no questions asked, even though i am Arabic. I would, once again, in a heart beat, go to defend this country i was born in, and my family will live in. I would fight till i die for my family to continue living safe in this country. In a case like as of today, i don't view it necessary. I would honestly try to get out of it, just to say if i was drafted tomorrow. I don't like/agree with violence to begin with, but it's human nature. Never will this world be violence free.

In my thoughts, Brandon, i think this thread should be locked up. Too many "aggressive thoughts" can start to get in here...

[jrgrim12]

I personally like the freedoms that are given to me. I enjoy being able to do as I please and I am willing to fight for those freedoms. There are many people that die trying to get into this country because what we have is so great and others want to destroy it. We have a great gift and we must be willing to fight to keep it. Bush maybe pushing this a bit hard but he had to do something. As the past has shown us we can't just sit back and turn the other cheek. Osoma tried to blow up the Twin towers before, we said oh well, then he blew up a military ship, we said oh well, then he blew up an embassy, we said oh well. Then he killed over 3,000 people. If we would have started this sooner I'm sure there are 3000 people that would be willing to fight.

We take alot of things for granted and we don't understand our freedom because we have always had. Think about. The music you listen to and the churches you go to. It's all because of the many Americans that gave their lifes so you can listen to EMENEM and surf the internet. We live in a great country and we should be proud to defend it so our children can enjoy everything we do.

That's my two cents worth anyway.

[Ian W.]

ok, need to clear up one misconception.

i will never, ever, willingly fight in a war. hell, the MP can come to my house and arrest me, but i will not go and take a gun and shoot someone, who instead of being american and listening to the american propaganda, listens to say, the iraqi propaganda. what it boils down to, is i'm not going to go and kill someone, just because their beliefs are different from mine. anyone who DOES do that, i consider no better than the nazis.

instead of going and killing "unbelievers", i find it a hell of a lot more useful to go and clear up misconceptions, caused by propaganda. true, it's a much harder way, but if you think about it, no matter how you put it, it's a more correct way than going and blowing the snot out of the other side.

Matt Attallah talked about never being a violence free world. you want to know the reason why? it's because of people who listen to the propaganda of their country, be it "Americans are unbelievers and capitalist pigs," or "all Arabs are terrorists." people who don't know better can't help but listen to these, and believe that they are true. it's not their fault, it's the politicians running the nations. to counter that hatred that has built from lies and not so truthful statements, is pretty hard. you have to prove why all Americans aren't unbelievers or capitalist pigs, or why all Arabs aren't terrorists. once you can prove to all these people that they've been lied to, you have a much better chance at world peace, because instead of those "filthy Arabs" being terrorists, they're no different from yourself. no one wants to kill their own family, and no one (at least that i know) would want to kill someone that has nothing against them.

i guess what i'm trying to say is that i'm anti-war, but not anti-action. i want to better the world, not fling megatons of nuclear warheads around and destroy it. America has a bad reputation with the rest of the world. the reason is that we're arrogant and obnoxious. i agree with the rest of the world. Americans need a reality check. the age of the super powers is over. we can't run around like we did in the cold war. America instead needs to show the rest of the world that it cares about the rest of the world, as opposed to just the super bowl and such. then, guess what, we're on our way to a much more peaceful world, and possibly a world without war, but that's still pushing it.

what needs to happen is for everyone to stop, and just talk with people from other areas of the world. only when you accept and understand why they're different, can war be avoided. i remember a story (i don't believe its a true story) about two nations, who sent their children to fight a war. the children got to the battle field, stood, looked across at each other, and dropped their weapons, went to the middle, and had a big picnic with all their food. the adults saw this, and realized that there wasn't anything different between them, and they went and joined the kids, and all lived happily ever after. yeah, it's a bit wishful, but it gets my point across. we, as Americans, don't need to go and blow some heads off of "Arab terrorists." we need to go and show people that there's nothing different between us, save appearance. if you can do that, then pretty much anything is possible.

[DanL]

There was a decorated General with a heart of gold
That likened him to all the stories he told
Of past battles won and lost and legends of old
A seasoned veteran in his own time
On the battlefield he gained respectful fame
With many metals of bravery and stripes to his name
He grew a beard as soon as he could to cover the scars on his face
And always urged his men on
But on the eve of great battle with the infantry and dream
The old general tossed in his sleep and wrestled with its meaning
He awoke from that night to tell what he had seen
And walked slowly out of his tent
All the men held tall with their chests in the air
With the courage in their blood and a fire in their stare
And it was a gray morning and they all wondered how they would fair
Till the old general told them to go home



Chorus:
He said,
I have seen the others and I have discovered that this fight is not worth fighting
And I’ve have seen their mothers and I will no other to follow me where I’m going
So, take your shower, shine your shoes
You got no time to lose
You are young men you must be living
Take your shower, shine your shoes
Well, you got no time to lose
You are young men you must be living
Go now you are forgiven

But the men stood fast with their guns on their shoulders
Not knowing what to do with the contradicting orders
The general said he would do his own duty
But he would extend it no further
The men could go as they pleased
But not a man moved their eyes gazed straight ahead
Till one by one they stepped back and not a word was said
And the old general was left with his own words echoing in his head
He then prepared to fight

Chorus
He said,
I have seen the others and I have discovered that this fight is not worth fighting
And I’ve have seen their mothers and I will no other to follow me where I’m going
So, take your shower, shine your shoes
You got no time to lose
You are young men you must be living
Take your shower, shine your shoes
Well, you got no time to lose
You are young men you must be living
Go now you are forgiven


Go now you are forgiven
Go now you are forgiven
Go now you are forgiven
Go now you are forgiven….

Dispatch - The General

[Lauren Hafford]

that is the greatest song ever! oh.....i love it!
how about Tenacious D's WonderBoy or The Greatest Song in the World?

[Wetzel]

Conscientious Objection and Alternative Service


Something that gets me is all the talk of 'I'll goto war to defend our freedoms', but have no problems when its our government taking away so many freedoms.


Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~
Hurray for idealists.
I shall run for office.

[FotoPlasma]

Originally posted by Lauren Hafford
how about Tenacious D's WonderBoy or The Greatest Song in the World?

I believe it was just a tribute... but that's rather irrelevant.

I-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-To-Die Rag
Originally written and performed by Country Joe & The Fish
Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Vietnam
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a #%#%#%#%,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Well, come on generals, let's move fast;
Your big chance has come at last.
Gotta go out and get those reds -
The only good commie is the one who's dead
And you know that peace can only be won
When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a #%#%#%#%,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Huh!

Well, come on Wall Street, don't move slow,
Why man, this is war au-go-go.
There's plenty good money to be made
By supplying the Army with the tools of the trade,
Just hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
They drop it on the Viet Cong.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a #%#%#%#%,
Next stop is Vietnam.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Well, come on mothers throughout the land,
Pack your boys off to Vietnam.
Come on fathers, don't hesitate,
Send 'em off before it's too late.
Be the first one on your block
To have your boy come home in a box.

And it's one, two, three
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a #%#%#%#%,
Next stop is Vietnam.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

I'm not going to reply to flames, sorry.

[Jeff Waegelin]

Originally posted by SuperDanman
Someone once said something to the extent, "Kill 1 person, it's a tragedy. Kill a thousand people, it's a statistic."

I believe that was Joseph Stalin who said that. Feel free to correct me (I just pulled that from something I saw once), but I'm pretty sure it was Stalin.

EDIT: I looked it up, and found the quote online. Here it is:

A single death is a tragedy; a million deaths is a statistic.
Joseph Stalin (1879 - 1953)

War Sucks

The Draft Sucks

nuff' said

-----------------------

Im the oldest of 3 and i turn 18 in May. I think its time to figure out how I can dodge the draft...

-----------------------


heh one addition

Maybe we should draft congress & the senate and send them over to Iraq....

[FotoPlasma]

Originally posted by D.J. Fluck
Maybe we should draft congress & the senate and send them over to Iraq....

We'd definetly lose, doing that.

They're all cowards.