Developing a standard

[Jack]

Originally posted by jonathan lall
Here's what I mean. This is an example of how a simple XML-based scouting sheet could look:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<scoutinfo>
	<team number="188" name="Woburn Robotics"></team>
	<robot name="Blizzard 3" type="goalbot"></robot>
	<goals number="2">excellent</goals>
	<balls number="0">N/A</balls>
	<traction>excellent</traction>
	<speed>good</speed>
	<motorpower number="6">excellent</motorpower>
	<gearbox type="one-speed"></gearbox>
	<gohome boolean="true">poor</gohome>
	<comments rating="8">
That's one nice robot. Fairly fast, really powerful, won't let go of goals involuntarily.
	</comments>
</scoutinfo>

All elements here are concrete values, whereas the attributes are more subjective. Since it's extensible, missing info shouldn't be a problem. There are a few ways we could do its DTD. All the attribute names are type, name, boolean, and number.

Yep. That's what i'll do. And thanks guys; I thought xml was much more involved that what it is. Very easy to do stuff in php.

PS: When outputting the data, should i just do some while( ) {} loops with echos, or are there any special xml output functions in php?

PPS: When people want to dump data from their palm and upload it to the site, should that be in CSV? or can palms (or whoever writes the program) do the dump in xml?

[Neal Turett]

I'm the person on Jack's team (201) writing our Scouting app, so here's my input.

a) I'm writing my program right now for WinCE, not Palm. This is because our team is getting WinCE devices, not Palm devices. I could write a Palm version too, as long as I get a heads up.

b) XML is as easy to output as CSV, from a programming perspective, they're both text. The main advantage to CSV is that it can be learnt by anyone, and is smaller. On the other hand, the XML standard can be changed mid-season with fewer issues.

I haven't looked at XML a lot, but I'm putting it to the top of my project list, and it doesn't sound hard.

Just thinking about it now, I would output the match scores as a CSV file, and the robot data files as a XML file.

[Stephen Kowski]

well I believe that XML is the way to go. I don't think there should be so many hard coded things in the XML file simply because it will be easier to generate with an ASP(or PHP if you prefer....yuck) script. Less hardcoded items the less I probably need to do. Just my opinion.

Just thinking about it now, I would output the match scores as a CSV file, and the robot data files as a XML file.

P.S. i think that this should be mainly a team info database if you want to put up match scores fine, but I don't think it should be part of the standard. It will just cause a hassle as my experience with this dictates.

[Stephen Kowski]

Ok once that is done we will have all the info in XML, but what about the ppl who have to bring that info back into an Access database (ME!!!) for their handheld application? Any Ideas?

[Neal Turett]

If you're using Access, can't you write VBA code? I don't know VB, but I'm sure that there are either built-in libraries available to handle XML or you download one.

Or write your own, to taste.

[Brandon Martus]

The problem is this:

team 47 has data in the database.

import xml file

it has more (and different) data about team 47.


which data do you keep.
how do you merge.

etc etc.

[Neal Turett]

We can't make an XML standard to conform with everybody's existing DB + Interface. Won't happen.

On the other hand, once the standard is set, I'm writing a PocketPC app that should be able to handle all of this stuff, and I know that others are seriously considering writing a program for Palm. I'm willing to polish my program to a distributable form and post it under whitepapers. I'd also post a computer side front-end for it, though it would most likely require a web server + PHP + MySQL to run. I'm sure that someone could be found to write a Access frontend, and possibly even a standalone app. If the data was in XML format to begin with, that wouldn't be so hard. If I find the time, I might even do it myself.

Other issues that arise once we have this standard is once we have a central repository for all this info, what happens if conflicting reports are entered. Not necessarily on the subjective stuff, but if one person says that a robot has 4WD and another says it only has 2WD? These are all issues that have to be worked out.

The credibility of the source is something that has to be considered when viewing the data. Even it comes from a third party, it still must be taken with a grain of salt. If it comes from the team you want information on, it has to be taken with a big grain of salt. Anything not purely objective can be questioned, and, as we all know, human beings lie. If we do have a central repository, the only way to prevent this would be to control who was able to enter data into the central repository. Every team would be able to enter their own data, as well as downloading data from, for example, www.feds201.com, as well.

[Jack]

neal, i talked to Stephen who said he also would talk to the wash guy. I'll tell you all about what we decided tommorrow.

For any other teams trying to make a database to be shared with other teams / on the web. Here is a breif summery of what most likely will happen.

Team 312 will be making something like what they did last year. It will be a palm app to collect Basic Team Info, along with Match data. I beleave that they will also be making an Access interface to go with that. On their website, you will be able to dump the data from access and upload it. (http://heatwave.cat.pinellas.k12.fl.us/) (in XML format)

Team 201 will be doing the same thing (sort of). We will be making an app for Win CE. The app will collect the same data that the 312 app will collect. You may be using the same access frontend that 312 has, or I (201) may make their own. (but very similar) Then you will be able to upload data to our site. (www.feds201.com)

Now... A little magic will happen between the two sites every so often (15-30 min). The data between the two will merge and become one!

The exact data that will be collected will be decided on once the game is known. If you would like input on this, be sure to check CD over the next few days.

I am unsure what WASH is doing this year, but hopefully, it will go with the other two sites.

This way, you can use whichever site you prefer. www.feds201.com will be having some special things for Mid-West teams, and if your allready there, you can use this site. On the other hand, if your using the 'simulator' on 312, then you can use their site.

A little more info on the 201 site:

We also have a few other special features regarding scouting. Our system will be called the FBI. (no it's not with the team the FBI) it stands for FEDS Bureau of Intelligence. The other things we'll have are:

Team Profiles - I think that the ENTIRE first community will like this. It allows teams to have one person that can update data about their bot/team. It will have a 'free responce' section where you will be able to have ~1000 words. Then there will be another section where you will be able to place links to pictures either on your webserver or CD pic gallery. (The images can also be displayed in the page vi. a BB [img] tag) There will also be a section where teams will be able to fill in basic data about their bot. Ex: 2-4 wheel drive,...

Easy Voting (for lack of better name now ) - Next to each team's profile will be a seciton where people are allowed to vote on what they think that bot is like. Ex: Traction, Pulling power. Yes, this is all subjective data. BUT... if you have 500 people voting, it can become accurate. This is not like the other scouting data that will be uploaded. It will just be local to the 201 site.

Team Forums - This is a place where any user (even people that are not registered to www.feds201.com) can post data in a format just like CD. They will be able to ask a team a question, give it a comment, or give feedback that isn't included in scouting data. There is a seperate 'Team Forum' for every team.

wow... That's a lot. 312 and WASH, and any other teams that want to describe their system, please post it here now. Or contact myself at: webmaster@feds201.com or Stephen Kowski for more info/joing the 201&312 partership.

I hope that this will assist a lot of scouting teams for the entire 2003 FIRST season by providing a huge amount of data from each team. Remember, you won't ever be sharing your 'stragity' with everyone. We're just pooling every teams resources so that when the time comes to decide on teams everyone has a lot of data. Bottem Line: It is much better for the ENTIRE first community if you are in this system & upload data, rather than just keep to yourself.

[Jeff Waegelin]

I'd just like to say the "FBI" name was my idea.... anyways, it sounds like a great plan, and I hope you'll all join in. Here's a picture of our FBI logo:

http://www.feds201.com/download.php?id=40