Flying robots?

[Rogue Leader]

Out of curiosity, would a flying robot be allowed, assuming we could get it powered and keep it within the rules? Or would the bumper zone (or any other) rules prohibit it? And if so...

...How about a hovercraft robot?

I'm also curious as to your own ideas about robots flying in FIRST (specifically FRC). Post your ideas here as well!

[JohnSchneider]

Bumper rule would be violated.

FIRST does have a collegiate pilot called "CARD" which is college level aerial robotics.

[Rogue Leader]

Wouldn't the bumper zone rule only apply when the initial ground position is being inspected? After all, if a robot drove up a ramp and ended up flying over 10 in. off the ground, it wouldn't violate the bumper rule, right?

[EricH]

Provided that such a flying robot was powered only by the allowed motors and battery, and carried only the legal control system, and started on the floor/ in the allowed position...

...and provided that the bumper zone requirements were met...

...and provided that all size restrictions were met (including the absolute height this year)...

...And provided that you can guarantee, with 100% or greater certainty, and with the inspectors clearing you, that you do not cause an unsafe condition, in accordance with [R08] (and if I was inspecting you, I would require you to demonstrate this in operation on a closed-to-everyone-else area, under worst-case scenarios, if it was even remotely possible to do so)...

Then yes, you would be allowed to have a flying robot.

However, [R08] says that you cannot cause an unsafe condition. I would consider any robot that could go over the field border without touching it or tipping over it to be unsafe in the extreme.

Now, that leaves you with a hovercraft. Is it doable? Probably. Is it practical? Better start practicing maneuvering now, and expect to be pushed around.


A note where I'm coming from on safety: Safety is a top concern. I compete in the SAE Aero Design competition. (OP, you're in CA; if you want to relax the day after the L.A. Regional, come on out to the R/C field in Van Nuys and watch a few dozen teams of college students crashfly their heavy-lift planes.) At this competition, with full aircraft-designed systems and at least decent pilots, flying planes that are roughly 1/3 of the weight of an FRC robot in a wide-open space, spectators are behind a fence, which is behind a row of trees, roughly 50 feet away from the side of the runway. Any plane that looks like it's heading for the trees is ordered downed on the spot, and there are a number of other safety measures in place to prevent injury in case something goes SNAFU. FIRST doesn't have anywhere near the safety measures for full-fledged flight by the robots, IMO. (CARD has better safety measures, including netting around the field to "restrain" errant robots.)

[Marc S.]

If your robot started on the ground with the bumpers at the bottom of the bumper zone and then hovered close to the ground with a safety margin, then it would be legal.

Originally Posted by animenerdjohn

FIRST does have a collegiate pilot called "CARD" which is college level aerial robotics.

Are they still doing that? I remember the card field last year at cmp, but they promoted it as a pilot and i haven't seen anything on usfirst about it recently.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Marc S.

Are they still doing that? I remember the card field last year at cmp, but they promoted it as a pilot and i haven't seen anything on usfirst about it recently.

FIRST isn't doing it, but CARD is still going--there was a thread on it revived a few hours ago. They're competing in April, IIRC.

[Rogue Leader]

Originally Posted by EricH

... I compete in the SAE Aero Design competition. (OP, you're in CA; if you want to relax the day after the L.A. Regional, come on out to the R/C field in Van Nuys and watch a few dozen teams of college students crashfly their heavy-lift planes.) At this competition, with full aircraft-designed systems and at least decent pilots, flying planes that are roughly 1/3 of the weight of an FRC robot in a wide-open space, spectators are behind a fence, which is behind a row of trees, roughly 50 feet away from the side of the runway. Any plane that looks like it's heading for the trees is ordered downed on the spot, and there are a number of other safety measures in place to prevent injury in case something goes SNAFU. FIRST doesn't have anywhere near the safety measures for full-fledged flight by the robots, IMO. (CARD has better safety measures, including netting around the field to "restrain" errant robots.)

I'll look into the R/C competition, sounds like something I'd like! Also, I think it'd be helpful (and interesting to see) if FIRST would implement a safety system like the one you mentioned. It would be helpful not just for flying robots, it could prevent any possible runaway robots from leaving the arena.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Rogue Leader

It would be helpful not just for flying robots, it could prevent any possible runaway robots from leaving the arena.

In my time in FIRST (since 2003), I've only seen 1 robot completely leave the arena; other than that, they've tipped on the barrier or it's been an arm outside, with only one arm uncontrolled. The netting isn't needed.

The one robot I saw leave the arena behind was during a practice day, before the shielding was added to the guardrails. Instead, there was a cable running the length of the field. This particular team had a low, fast robot, and in autonomous it went over the ramp (2003), took a left, and headed under the stands before anybody could hit the E-stop--right between the angle and the cable. Now there's polycarbonate shielding all along the guardrail. No further incidents of that sort.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by EricH

A note where I'm coming from on safety: Safety is a top concern. I compete in the SAE Aero Design competition. (OP, you're in CA; if you want to relax the day after the L.A. Regional, come on out to the R/C field in Van Nuys and watch a few dozen teams of college students crashfly their heavy-lift planes.) At this competition, with full aircraft-designed systems and at least decent pilots, flying planes that are roughly 1/3 of the weight of an FRC robot in a wide-open space, spectators are behind a fence, which is behind a row of trees, roughly 50 feet away from the side of the runway. Any plane that looks like it's heading for the trees is ordered downed on the spot, and there are a number of other safety measures in place to prevent injury in case something goes SNAFU. FIRST doesn't have anywhere near the safety measures for full-fledged flight by the robots, IMO. (CARD has better safety measures, including netting around the field to "restrain" errant robots.)

Interesting. The International Aerial Robotics Competition (in 2007 and 2008, at least) took a different approach to safety.

Competitors were permitted to fly in much closer proximity to buildings, people and other equipment, because the challenge involved identifying and delivering payloads into a building. Nevertheless, there were certain areas designated as a restricted, and only event staff and vehicle crews were allowed in.

There were a couple interesting incidents, including the crash of a poorly-executed small helicopter UAV in proximity to a judge and its pilot.

Our 45 kg aircraft was allowed to pass almost directly over spectators at an altitude of around 50 m, after demonstrating a payload delivery pass under manual control.

All vehicles were required to be "rendered ballistic" upon command, for safety. Is that what SAE Aero Design mandates?

Originally Posted by EricH

FIRST isn't doing it, but CARD is still going--there was a thread on it revived a few hours ago. They're competing in April, IIRC.

I wonder what prompted FIRST to drop it (or the organizers to sever ties)?

[Aren Siekmeier]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

I wonder what prompted FIRST to drop it (or the organizers to sever ties)?

CARD is indeed still going (I'm working with the U of M team affiliated with GO FIRST) and the competition will be in May most likely, at a location tbd.

This is how I understand it: CARD was originally organized by a few students from Illinois Institute of Technology who wanted a robotics program in college that remained affiliated with/similar to FIRST. Thus the Collegiate Aerial Robotics Demonstration was started, and FIRST agreed to host the pilot event at the championship last year. This year, FIRST has told the organizers of the program that they'd like to remain focused on the existing programs, so CARD (or whatever it will be called in the future) is independent of FIRST. But the season is in full swing, and we're currently working on a aerial vehicle and a ground vehicle that will collaborate in the new game.

The somewhat outdated website is at http://collegiateaerialrobotics.org.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

Interesting. The International Aerial Robotics Competition (in 2007 and 2008, at least) took a different approach to safety.

Competitors were permitted to fly in much closer proximity to buildings, people and other equipment, because the challenge involved identifying and delivering payloads into a building. Nevertheless, there were certain areas designated as a restricted, and only event staff and vehicle crews were allowed in.
[...]
All vehicles were required to be "rendered ballistic" upon command, for safety. Is that what SAE Aero Design mandates?

There's a difference between flying and having the ground repel you.

Helicopters (rotary-wing aircraft) are generally more maneuverable than airplanes (fixed-wing aircraft). This allows them to fly into tighter spaces than almost any airplane. There is no comparison between the maneuverability of a 45 kg helo that is designed to fly at 45 kg (little/no payload) and that of a 10-20 lb plane that's carrying up to 4x its own weight, and is rather underpowered. The helo will win a maneuverability contest every time given that both pilots know what they're doing.

Aero Design is all about the payload. (OK, unless you're Micro Class--then you get the box-packing, unpacking, and launching challenges added...) IARC is not.

SAE's mandate is that you do what the Air Boss tells you. If he isn't saying anything, maintain your horizontal 360 degree circuit route (and don't try any aerobatics). If he's telling you to bring the plane down, kill the engine and go nose down (or whatever you need to do to crash on command), right now! I've seen planes come close to the pits/spectators. It's not fun trying to dodge planes that are wandering on their empty-weight flight. I've done that. (Yeah, high-lift planes with nothing to lift except themselves... slightly crazy flight paths can result.)

The only people allowed on the runway are the flight crew and some media (off-runway but still close), as well as judges. Team members are in the pit area, by the fence (and, with AMA as well as SAE, you do not fly over the pits). Spectators, as I mentioned, are behind that fence.

[Tristan Lall]

Originally Posted by EricH

There's a difference between flying and having the ground repel you.

Helicopters (rotary-wing aircraft) are generally more maneuverable than airplanes (fixed-wing aircraft). This allows them to fly into tighter spaces than almost any airplane. There is no comparison between the maneuverability of a 45 kg helo that is designed to fly at 45 kg (little/no payload) and that of a 10-20 lb plane that's carrying up to 4x its own weight, and is rather underpowered. The helo will win a maneuverability contest every time given that both pilots know what they're doing.

Actually, ours was a 45 kg fixed-wing aircraft (something like 35 kg empty, plus 10 kg tested payload¹). Some of the other competitors used helicopters; ours was the largest plane.

The one that crashed was on the small side—probably around 5 kg. The heaviest aircraft at the event was a Yamaha RMAX helicopter UAV, at 64 kg empty, with probably 20 kg of payload.

The smallest helicopters were intended to actually try to enter buildings (insanity, given their level of sophistication). The medium-sized ones flew right up to windows, and launched remote vehicles in. The big one (the RMAX) hovered and dropped a boom on a cable down to window level, then stuck it through the window. Ours dropped a rover by parachute, which launched a smaller remote vehicle through the window. None of these systems worked very well, and most could not be successfully demonstrated.

¹ I suspect maximum takeoff weight would have been considerably higher, given a long enough runway. We only tested to around 10 kg payload, because that's all we really needed, and because the straight portion of our testing runway was 260 m long (and uphill), and we needed to be able to reject a takeoff with moderate ease, as well as land there with payload onboard (in case of a release failure). Given time to accelerate down the 1 100 m runway at the competition, we likely would have been able to lift much more. The problem would have been maximum landing weight—taking off at 80 kg gross weight might have been feasible, but landing would have required jettisoning a large portion of that.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by Marc S.

If your robot started on the ground with the bumpers at the bottom of the bumper zone and then hovered close to the ground with a safety margin, then it would be legal.

Marc,
Robots need to maintain the bumper zone except when crossing the barrier or ramp.
As Eric has pointed out, safety is the first issue. As inspectors we would be looking first for ratings on whatever you are using for lift, how it is protected from fingers and other body parts and is it possible for it to come apart during competition. Then we move on to the remainder of the inspection checklist.

[EricH]

Actually, Tristan, I think a year or so after that, teams had gotten to the point where they changed the challenge--they skipped the "deliver" portion and had everyone focus on the "in the building" portion. (I'd have to ask the SDSM&T UAV team's veterans to be sure of what they're doing this year.) I know SDSM&T's team was one of the mid-size choppers, dropping a quadrotor.

When SAE does the Aero Design competition, they like to adhere to the AMA safety code at least to some extent. Nothing over 55lb (without a waiver, which SAE doesn't allow in competition), no flying over pits, no metal props, nothing beyond the safety line except flight crew/event staff. AMA's safety rule is nothing outdoors closer than 25' to anybody except the pilot and helpers on the flight line. (Indoors... well, usually the indoor flyers are much lighter and much less powerful than the outdoor birds.)

[Gary Dillard]

Given the dynamics of the ramp, I'll venture that we'll see quite a few flying robots this year.

Or did you mean "intentionally flying"?