Go to Post If a team wants to cheat then it does nothing but give them a bad cloud hanging over their own heads. - Jon K. [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 18:08
IndySam's Avatar
IndySam IndySam is offline
Registered User
FRC #0829 (Digital Goats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Indy
Posts: 3,362
IndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond reputeIndySam has a reputation beyond repute
How should we react to posts?

Here is a post by a student who doesn't understand the purpose of FIRST. As a community how should we react to this post?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=102609

I understand the immediate reaction is to go on the attack and slam him but what purpose does that serve? Sure maybe he deserves it but wouldn't it be better to just have a mod delete the thread and send the offender a note explaining why his actions are inappropriate and maybe help him learn something?

Who knows, with a little coaching maybe he could become a valuable member of the community. Lets face it, there's almost zero chance of that happening now.

I must say Cory that your comments when closing the thread are absolutely inappropriate. You are basically saying OK boys lets get this guy. I think you deserve as many red dots for that comment as the OP.
__________________
"Champions are champions not because they do anything extraordinary but because they do the ordinary things better than anyone else." —Chuck Knoll


2015 Indianapolis District Winner
2014 Boilermaker Regional Industrial Design Award
2013 Smoky Mountain Regional Industrial Design Award
2012 Boilermaker Engineering Excellence Award
2010 Boilermaker Rockwell Innovation in Control Award.
2009 Buckeye J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2009 Boilermaker J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2008 Boilermaker J&J Gracious Professionalism Award
2007 St Louis Regional Winners
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 18:16
wireties's Avatar
wireties wireties is online now
Principal Engineer
AKA: Keith Buchanan
FRC #1296 (Full Metal Jackets)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Rockwall, TX
Posts: 1,171
wireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to wireties
Re: How should we react to posts?

It sounds like the student had a poor experience somewhere along the line. I also advocate contacting him and giving a chance to post a "sorry, I didn't understand" message and delete the entire thread.
__________________
Fast, cheap or working - pick any two!
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 18:17
Andrew Lawrence
 
Posts: n/a
Re: How should we react to posts?

I agree with this. I happened to read the post, and while a little uncalled for, it was obviously of good intentions. The OP brought up a valid issue that anyone in FIRST has thought of at least once. However, he/she brought Buzz into it, and that's where people began to bash him/her. I haven't watched the video so I can't say how many mentors were shown, however as we all know mentors are a huge part of FIRST. What the mentors do may have been misunderstood by the OP.

Personally, I think the OP was a good person who brought up a valid issue, but just worded it wrong. The people at CD are supposed to help others, not bash them so hard they not come back and receive the experience we have because of a silly first-time mistake. I understand the OP's side, being once new and still very uneducated in some areas. Is it not our job on CD and FIRST to educate those who need it?
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 18:27
KevinGoneNuts's Avatar
KevinGoneNuts KevinGoneNuts is offline
Registered User
AKA: Kevin
FRC #0675 (Tech High Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Rohnert Park
Posts: 177
KevinGoneNuts has much to be proud ofKevinGoneNuts has much to be proud ofKevinGoneNuts has much to be proud ofKevinGoneNuts has much to be proud ofKevinGoneNuts has much to be proud ofKevinGoneNuts has much to be proud ofKevinGoneNuts has much to be proud ofKevinGoneNuts has much to be proud ofKevinGoneNuts has much to be proud of
Re: How should we react to posts?

I agree with all of this but the one thing that EVERYONE on chiefdelphi needs to remember is something we hear so constantly. Gracious Professionalism.

I understand where the OP is coming from, but he could have handled it in a more gracious and professional way. We all should remember that what we say on CD reflects not just us, but also our teams. And yes Andrew, everyone needs a second chance. I mean I feel bad for the OP look at how many red bars he has...I have been in his boat before and it is a huge a learning experience...
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 18:32
MrForbes's Avatar
MrForbes MrForbes is offline
Registered User
AKA: Jim
FRC #1726 (N.E.R.D.S.)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 6,031
MrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond reputeMrForbes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How should we react to posts?

Yup, should have been handled differently....and yeah, it's that time of build season when a lot of us are pretty wound up! so it's hard to put things in perspective.
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 18:33
BrendanB BrendanB is offline
Registered User
AKA: Brendan Browne
FRC #1058 (PVC Pirates)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Londonderry, NH
Posts: 3,104
BrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How should we react to posts?

I'm not happy by the OP's position but again that is his position and he is entitled to it and I respect it. Even though some of us don't agree with that viewpoint about mentors on a team a majority of teams do. I do understand where he comes from, I have seen several teams who appear to be all the mentors work but that is just me staring at a house saying it is ugly without going inside.

I'm also not happy with the reaction by CDers and the reaction to reactions. If you have things to say we have PM for that. Don't air it out here folks!
__________________
1519 Mechanical M.A.Y.H.E.M. 2008 - 2010
3467 Windham Windup 2011 - 2015
1058 PVC Pirates 2016 - xxxx
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 18:36
Tristan Lall's Avatar
Tristan Lall Tristan Lall is offline
Registered User
FRC #0188 (Woburn Robotics)
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 2,484
Tristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond reputeTristan Lall has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How should we react to posts?

I'd avoid deleting the thread unless the original poster really wants it deleted, and the ChiefDelphi community seems to agree. There's no defamation there, especially not after the link was redacted.

I definitely think the person deserves the opportunity to respond (civilly and thoughtfully) to those who criticized them. A locked thread doesn't serve that purpose very well, so I suggest they post here instead. (If they want nothing more than to throw insults, they'll just get banned.)
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 18:49
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,823
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: How should we react to posts?

If you want to be a jerk on the internet I don't think you should be shielded from the consequences of acting like a jerk. I see nothing wrong with what I posted and stand by it. My intent was not to ostracize the kid or leave it there so people can 'blacklist' the kid or team. I simply think that in the real world if you say something you don't get to take it back.

I'll abide by that myself. If some think my posts are inappropriate and rude, that's fine. They were my words and I won't hide from them.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254

Last edited by Cory : 12-02-2012 at 19:39.
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 19:07
Chris is me's Avatar
Chris is me Chris is me is offline
no bag, vex only, final destination
AKA: Pinecone
FRC #0228 (GUS Robotics); FRC #2170 (Titanium Tomahawks)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Glastonbury, CT
Posts: 7,780
Chris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond reputeChris is me has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Chris is me
Re: How should we react to posts?

This is not an easy question. My opinion on this has changed as much as I have while posting on CD... And my opinion is just that. I know nothing about the moderation policy of Chief Delphi. Treat this post as a perspective from an individual, nothing more.

I believe the appropriate response in terms of community moderation to that thread would be a deletion and a temporary ban. In the particular incident we are now having a public meta discussion about, the reputation of the team is at stake. The poster's identity is not persistent outside of Chief Delphi, but the team number is persistent, potentially long after the student leaves. People create permanent negative associations easily. A deletion and temporary ban allows the poster to "cool off" long enough to at least try and understand what happened.

I bet at least one person has now put that team on some kind of blacklist. And that's not fair to everyone else who ever put any effort on that team, even if the student was claiming to speak for them all. I know some teams have all out policies against posting on Chief Delphi to protect their particular brand. Others do not go so far, but (correctly?) reinforce a strong culture of "act as if you're always being watched" which serves them very, very well! It's a healthy lesson to learn in professionalism. I generally see the teams that take such preventative action as teams that have their act together enough that they don't "need" the help and support of places like CD as much as other teams, though.

If the user's post was deleted, the permanence would be less daunting. If the user was temporarily banned, with clear reasoning and an opportunity for a private discussion with their team leadership, if any, before posting again - that would help prevent the permanent damage to the team's reputation that posts like that would cause.

Now with damage control and moderation out of the way... I think the intent of this thread was to discuss how to react to people that basically don't "get it" - "it" being the general values of tolerance and respect for team structures different than one's own. That's... quite difficult. I'll get back to you guys on that one.
__________________
Mentor / Drive Coach: 228 (2016-?)
--2016 Waterbury SFs (with 3314, 3719), RIDE #2 Seed / Winners (with 1058, 6153), Carver QFs (with 503, 359, 4607)
Mentor / Consultant Person: 2170 (2017-?)
.
College Mentor: 2791 (2010-2015)
-- 2015 TVR Motorola Quality, FLR GM Industrial Design -- 2014 FLR Motorola Quality / SFs (with 341, 4930)
-- 2013 BAE Motorola Quality, WPI Regional #1 Seed / Delphi Excellence in Engineering / Finalists (with 20, 3182)
-- 2012 BAE Imagery / Finalists (with 1519, 885), CT Xerox Creativity / SFs (with 2168, 118)
Student: 1714 (2009) - 2009 MN 10K Lakes Regional Winners (with 2826, 2470)
2791 Build Season Photo Gallery - Look here for mechanism photos My Robotics Blog (Updated April 11 2014)
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 19:08
CidTeach CidTeach is offline
Mechie
AKA: Mr. C
FRC #0334 (Tech Knights)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Brooklyn NY
Posts: 33
CidTeach is just really niceCidTeach is just really niceCidTeach is just really niceCidTeach is just really niceCidTeach is just really nice
Re: How should we react to posts?

I'm with Cory,
i tell my students to "man-up" all the time. All that means is stand up the the consequences regardless of how severe. If you are upset about something, talk it out and come to a resolution - after all, that is what we are here to do. Help young ones grow into solution finding useful people. If you do not know how to act, personally and professionally you will learn by fire.

No one forgets the first time they bust up their finger in the shop, I'm sure this similar analogy applies.
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 19:25
MrBasse MrBasse is offline
Registered User
FRC #3572 (Wavelength)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Norton Shores, MI
Posts: 687
MrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond reputeMrBasse has a reputation beyond repute
Re: How should we react to posts?

I don't know if it is fair to call him a jerk right away... I think what we have here is a something that we have all been, a kid. He saw what he views as a problem, which I think we can all agree can be a problem to different degrees with some teams, and his method for recognizing it was good until he went the extra step and crossed a line, or two, well maybe three.

I also don't think that it is fair for us to say that he doesn't understand FIRST either. Personally I feel that a kid will be more inspired (the true goal of FIRST) by learning how to make something and then actually making it, rather than just learning the process by watching someone else make it or by sending it off to a shop to be made. Does that mean that sending something out to be laser cut is a bad practice? Of course not, it happens in industry all the time. But does sending it out directly involve the students in the process from start to finish? More often than not I doubt it.

I am not saying I agree with his method, or his idea completely, but I can see where he is coming from and I feel that it is a legit concern that should be addressed in a friendly and compassionate way. Maybe by reminding him that the issue could be handled differently and seeing how he responds to the idea, rather than immediately saying that he is reported for doing something wrong.

We still have to remember that everyone makes mistakes, sometimes the results are just more visible and affect more than just the individuals involved...
__________________
Andrew Basse
Coach - FRC Team 3572 - Wavelength
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 19:29
Andrew Lawrence
 
Posts: n/a
Re: How should we react to posts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBasse View Post
We still have to remember that everyone makes mistakes, sometimes the results are just more visible and affect more than just the individuals involved...
Well said Mr. Basse. Everyone makes mistakes, in fact everyone still makes mistakes, although they occur less frequently with experience, something us who are somewhat new to FRC can lack sometimes. If it were a 30 year old mentor, then the results/reactions would have been very different. But this is a kid, probably around 16 years old. If a students gets something wrong in class, the more experienced and educated teachers teach them how to do it right.
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 19:34
wireties's Avatar
wireties wireties is online now
Principal Engineer
AKA: Keith Buchanan
FRC #1296 (Full Metal Jackets)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Rockwall, TX
Posts: 1,171
wireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond reputewireties has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to wireties
Re: How should we react to posts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CidTeach View Post
No one forgets the first time they bust up their finger in the shop, I'm sure this similar analogy applies.
If a student busts a finger after being given safety instructions, I totally agree. If this is strike 2 for this student, I also agree. Was that the case here? Did the student have any idea what FIRST is about? Hard to know I reckon...

I suppose the older (and hopefully wiser) one gets the more tolerant - right up to the point where one is being ignored or taken advantage of - then the hammer must come down, maybe literally ;o)
__________________
Fast, cheap or working - pick any two!
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 19:37
GW Kalrod GW Kalrod is offline
Registered User
AKA: Nick Plante
FRC #0166 (Chop Shop)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Merrimack, NH
Posts: 18
GW Kalrod is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via AIM to GW Kalrod
Re: How should we react to posts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
If you want to be a jerk on the internet I don't think you should be shielded from the consequences of acting like a jerk. I see nothing wrong with what I posted and stand by it.
Wait, you locked a thread because you found it in poor taste, yet you leave it visible so he has to face the "consequences"?

Slow down for a second. The original thread involved a student posting about how he does not agree with the philosophy that many teams/mentors/students hold that mentors should work equally with students, or perhaps even do most of the technical work. That in itself, I think you'd agree, is not worthy of a lock because it is a very valid point of contention within the FIRST community.

I think the quote that got everyone's attention was the following:
"If you think you are some cool old guys because you own a bunch of high school kids, get a grip and go start your own robotics organization."

Many mentors would take offense from that statement, and rightly so because it stereotypes all mentors in a negative way. However, that doesn't change the fact that there are a few teams (which we are all aware of) where the mentors may be accurately described by this statement. While this is a minority, that part of the student's point, while poorly delivered, stands as an open issue in our community.

To be clear, I have absolutely no problem with how other teams run, it's up to each team to decide what works best for them. I'm just not sure how I feel about the overall response to the original thread.
__________________
KISS (otherwise known as the easiest way to not win.)

Last edited by GW Kalrod : 12-02-2012 at 19:48.
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 12-02-2012, 19:43
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,823
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: How should we react to posts?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBasse View Post
I don't know if it is fair to call him a jerk right away... I think what we have here is a something that we have all been, a kid. He saw what he views as a problem, which I think we can all agree can be a problem to different degrees with some teams, and his method for recognizing it was good until he went the extra step and crossed a line, or two, well maybe three.


This is hardly a consensus. I used to think that there was a problem with this but came to realize a long time ago that it doesn't matter how anyone else runs their team, so long as it works for them.

This is an argument that has been rehashed a hundred times on Chief. Go find comments made by Dean, Woodie, Dave, etc. All of them have said in different ways that a huge part of FIRST is mentor involvement with students. Nowhere will you find guidelines saying what level is inappropriate.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:24.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi