How should we react to posts?

[Tetraman]

I'm in agreement with IndySam's suggestion, of deleting the thread entirely, PMing the poster with the reason it was taken down, and give the poster a second chance to state his or her opinion on CD in a more appropriate matter.

The community that doesn't have Mod status should do one of two things: Respond to the posters question (if there is one) or ignore it. "By giving attention to it, we've managed to make the situation bigger than it was." Why do we always have to defend our hive like bees and then turn into the bullies? Just ignore the thread. Or, if you can find a question or issue posed by the original poster, answer it. The topic the poster proposed in the end, is a valid one. If you have an answer for it, answer it, or if you want to debunk the question, debunk it. But we should not just simply sit there in the thread and act like fools mocking the poster and his post.

It then is the job of the Mod and forum supervisors to act on the thread in a way that corresponds with the rules of the Chief Delphi community. In this case, immediate deletion of the thread and notification to the poster should have been the proper course of action.

In this case, I feel that the actions taken in this situation is akin to bullying another poster simply for a lack of judgement. The poster had less than 10 posts; don't expect someone to just easily mold into the community at large instantaneously. It should not be up to the moderation staff to openly mock someone for their posts, nor accuse them of being a "jerk" openly.

Also, negative rep is never an appropriate response to ANY situation.

[Chris86]

No offense to anybody here, but thinking that giving the kid a chance to apologize is being fair to the post does not resolve the issue. I did not see the original post, but the student at least showed some courtesy by removing the team's name and trying to address it as an issue instead of calling people out.

If I'm that student, I still don't think I did anything wrong because the "consequences of my actions" is currently several mentors (that I think do everything for their team as it is anyways) discussing how best to deal with me.

As for the actual issue - I have been involved (as a student or as a mentor) with three different teams that have radically different views on roles of students, parents, and mentors. It really is a culture-shock seeing how different teams can be set up.

A team in which the student's do all of the work often has the students wondering how it could possibly be better for the mentor's to be as involved as they are in other teams, but when they post about it (whether it be in a rather insulting post as it was in this case or in one of the other discussion posts), its always called jealousy, arrogance, or just plain ignored by the mentors having their adult-discussion on what they do for their teams on the forums.

Teams have a wide variety of how involved mentors are and there is no one "best" way to do it. However, some teams treat their students as adults and give them the responsibility of an adult. So on CD, especially if we are going to force students to "face the consequences of their actions" like an adult, the least we can do is respect students' opinions the way we would an adult's.

[EricH]

It wasn't that the thread discussed a sensitive issue, to me. It was that it was an attack post, in tone as written, though I don't know if it was intended that way. This sort of post has the severe potential for a flame war. It wasn't just that one sentence, it was almost the entire post, and the followup posts.

To be honest, part of the best way to respond to posts like that can be found in the one post I made to the thread, of the three I started. When I see a post like the initial one, I get really mad. I've found that it works better if I wait a bit, to cool off/organize my thoughts, and present a cohesive, non-attacking post.

This particular issue is by no means dead. However, it is also by no means an easy one to bring up without causing a flame war. As such, we as a general group, prefer to quell the flame wars and refer people to the prior, closed threads on the topic.

[SousVide]

As many have said, this has been hashed and rehashed over again. The debate won't die, except the results... that is when students see a wicked awesome robot built by mentors - it doth not inspire nor encourage.

There are Mentoring guidelines. I like section 8 a lot:

http://www.usfirst.org/uploadedFiles...ng%20Guide.pdf

I Do, You Watch
I Do, You Help
You Do, I Help
You Do, I Watch

I come from a world of FLL, which is still FIRST. In FLL, students do *all* of the work - emphasis mine. Mentors and Coaches encourage and provide the process; keep everything including sanity in check. In FRC, we encourage the engineering process, learn the technical knowledge, and at some point, we as mentors do need to start turning the keys over to the students - as much as they can manage. The idea behind FIRST isn't just to inspire, it is to build leaders... They can't learn to be leaders having to take the backseat the entire time.

[XaulZan11]

Originally Posted by SousVide

that is when students see a wicked awesome robot built by mentors - it doth not inspire nor encourage.

Watching 111 take on 71 (two teams who I thought were mentor built at the time*) in the finals of my first regional was pretty inspiring for me.

*I obviously no longer think that now.

[Akash Rastogi]

I would be on Cory's side on this one.

I've said plenty of stupid things on CD since I started using it. Having those stupid posts still exist for all to see (especially for me to see) is a reminder to correct such actions in the future.

+$0.02

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi

I would be on Cory's side on this one.

I've said plenty of stupid things on CD since I started using it. Having those stupid posts still exist for all to see (especially for me to see) is a reminder to correct such actions in the future.

+$0.02

I agree with Cory that keeping it there reminds the user of their mistake, however we could be a bit lenient towards the OP, since it was his/her first offense. If it was a repeating problem, I'd say put it in bold letters for everyone to see, but it's not.

If/when I say something stupid, I expect it to stay there since I don't learn anything if it disappears, but only because I've been here for about a year now, and I've said stupid things before.

[Alan Anderson]

I think the appropriate way to respond to a post attacking mentors for building their team's robots for the students is to simply invite the author to visit one of the teams being accused and see what really goes on.

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I think the appropriate way to respond to a post attacking mentors for building their team's robots for the students is to simply invite the author to visit one of the teams being accused and see what really goes on.

I spoke with [the team in question], and one of the students is trying to do just that.

[SousVide]

it's always inspiring to see professionals do work - obviously, I am talking about inspiring for the students to see what they can do *on their own skills*... Sure, it's great to see NASA engineers build the space shuttle - that's not what I am getting at...

I build awesome rockets too, on my own time and in my own shop - when I am mentoring, I am trying my damnest to have the students learn to be able to do it... not turn it into a sweatshop for my own enjoyment - but that's just me... I'll have to admit that it is a difficult line to draw, it's the 20th hour and nothing works - what then. I can't say that I understand other's in their own situation. My opinion is that the students get the robot commensurate with their own skills and knowledge... It's terrific that I know how to put one together, but that's not the idea...

I always congratulate other teams for their awesome job... and if it turns out to be a space shuttle job - that's great too, I'd still admire it for what it is... But just too bad for some of these students who do get the short end... FWIW, I haven't seen an awesome robot without the students behind it yet... Even if I see one, I promise not to point it out

Originally Posted by XaulZan11

Watching 111 take on 71 (two teams who I thought were mentor built at the time*) in the finals of my first regional was pretty inspiring for me.

*I obviously no longer think that now.

[nitneylion452]

Was the response by the community a good one? No. Was the topic sensitive? Yes. Did the OP apologize and try to reformulate his question/argument in a non offensive way after seeing that s/he offended some people? No. And that's where the issue lies in my mind. Sometimes we say things in a way that isn't the best to convey our true feelings or intent. When we do that and people respond in a way that shows they are offended, we should step back, apologize for the original comment, state our true intent, and reformulate our thoughts. The OP didn't do that in this case.

Granted, the response by the community as a whole was not good as far as what was public, but I think negative rep is a good way to tell a poster that he's crossed a line. It's there for that reason, so we should use it. Yes, it's a shame that the poster has such bad rep at the moment, but I think had he done what I described above, his rep may have increased or at least stayed the same as he would have admitted to a mistake and taken the high road in this case.

In conclusion, this thread was just bad all around. Neither side is really right or took the moral high ground. I do, however, agree with Corey's comments in locking the thread. If you say something that you will regret in the real world, nobody will be there to delete it. The same should hold true in this instance.

[NickE]

I was a student on a team that has been specifically called out on these forums before for being structured with what some posters viewed as too much mentor involvement. Having had a phenomenal experience on the team, directed attacks like these just seem insulting.

Everybody has a different idea of how a FIRST team should be run. My opinion is that in situations like this, the original poster should be reminded that there is not one perfect team structure and nobody should tell anybody else how to run their team. Different teams inspire members in different ways and this diversity in structure is not a bad thing.

[Koko Ed]

I actually wonder if the kid was booted off of his team and is trying to burn them by insulting as many team in FIRST as they can while representing themselves as a member of their team(this isn't a new problem but they usually do it without a team number so there is no backlash towards their own team) That was a very real fear of mine if a student is booted off my team and decided to get revenge by damaging our reputation by going around giving us a bad name with rude behavior on CD.

[sgreco]

I think the topic of the post is important (but the execution was in poor taste). I also agree with Cory that people should be held responsible for what they say. I've certainly made some posts that I regret, but if you can just delete them, change your user name, etc. (effectively hide from it), then you never learn anything. People should think twice before they post (something I could certainly stand to do myself).

With my experience in FIRST I've found that the most important for people to realize is that FIRST is mostly about inspiration; I'm not suggesting that other things don't matter, but inspiration is first and foremost in terms of the goals of FIRST.

Students can't learn if they don't do somethings themselves, but they also can't learn by doing everything by themselves; it's a lot easier to learn with professional guidance. That said, it's most important that kids are inspired. They can be inspired in so many different ways by so many different levels of involvement. I think we should let teams deal with the ratio of student work to mentor work on an individual basis. If the team exists, students are coming, and if students are coming, they're more than likely inspired in some way or another.

[PayneTrain]

There's always one way this annual discussion comes to life.
This is the more likely and more disappointing way.

Contrary to the belief of the op, no one likes it when you attack other teams.

Contrary to the belief of a few Chief Delphi members, red-repping the kid into the 6th circle of hell isn't exactly a quick fix.

I think when people who are at the mentoring age verbally go after an OP in a negative way, you are giving them what they expect, and not what they are supposed to hear. Send a PM asking why they think that. Ask if they want to come visit your build site. Ask for mentor contact information and get the communication lines open. Two people sitting with their noses facing opposite corners have a tough time finding common ground.

It's not the duty of the community to be a Gracious Professionalism Internet Police squad, but a set of spokespeople who promote the good works of gracious, rational, professional members of the CD community and the FIRST community through both their words and their actions representing these values.

It's Sunday on Week 6. In 9 days, we all bag up a robot that we enter at competition in March and April. Some of us have been done for a week. Some of us finished most of our work today. I feel like this member is staring at a few parts in a box and no where to go.

Well, no where to go except the internet machine. The thought process probably involves seeing what other teams are doing, how they are doing it, and what they are doing. Then after looking back at the progress of this students team, a few unsavory dots begin to connect themselves.

Ye who has not thought enviously of other teams, cast the first stone.

I'll watch.