Mentors on the team

[nileshp87]

I think we can all agree that there exists some teams where the mentors do all or most of the work on the robot.

To me personally, as a student, FIRST is FRC is a competition that takes place in high school. Having a robot be built almost entirely by mentors feels akin to cheating (or maybe bad sportsmanship).

Think of it as a spelling bee with little kids in it, then some adult comes and spells all the words for his\her kid in their place. Then tries to play it off as some kind of educational experience.

[MrForbes]

Originally Posted by nileshp87

I think we can all agree that there exists some teams where the mentors do all or most of the work on the robot.

I disagree, because I've never seen it happen.

My guess is that you've never seen it happen either.

[Alex Chambers]

Our team i very student oriented, we build the robot, we do the design, we do the programming, but we do have mentors to ask for help when we get in a bind and to check our ideas against to insure we don't do something foolish. However as my teammate pointed out many design ideas in first are not arrived at by students but rather by mentors or students who have had some contact with first for multiple years. This year our robotics team as usual was run by students and designed by students but some of our designs drew heavily on teams that we viewed at the national competition that were more mentor driven and as usual some ideas were discussed with mentors before being finalized. Still i am a firm believer that students should always be more involved in the robot then mentors in order to get the best learning experience from first. Don't get me wrong i respect and appreciate all our team's mentors and I don't hesitate to ask for help, but at the same time i expect them to, for the most part allow the students to be responsible for the robot and provide help only when they for-see disaster or are asked.

[wireties]

There is another angle on the mentor role that isn't mentioned often in this thread. Most (but not all) of the first tier teams have been around for a while. Why is that? I think that mentors and teachers help keep the "corporate" memory of the team. Older students pass on many things to younger students but the teachers and mentors are direct links to the past. And the past has value...

New students make the same mistakes again every year (as do young engineers). It is not a bad thing but an expected and reasonable occurrence. There is no stronger response from a mentor (or older student) than telling the student theirs is a great idea but we tried it in 200X and failed miserably and let us tell you why.

I've been with FRC1296 nine years now along side the same awesome teacher/sponsor. The continuity is valuable. Our "memory" is being reinforced with students (now with engineering & CS degrees) returning as mentors. I've had a lot of fun with the younger mentors this year.

Our students make all decisions but we mentors endeavor to make sure the decisions are based on solid science and math, analyzed and modeled where possible, and executed safely and productively. Sure, the mentors could make a more competitive robot but what fun would that be? It is great to to see the students innovate, master the design process, apply math and science and learn to use the tools. It works for us.

[Mark Sheridan]

I think its more of "the devil is in the details." I think my students came up with good ideas with very solid intuition and science. I found my role was more to translate their ideas into working models. Students don't know all the details, I am there to fill in the missing pieces.

For example, I don't expect new students to know the pros and cons of set screws. Its my responsibility to show if they need them, why they need them, how to properly to use them in future designs and situations to avoid them.

The physics calculations were handled by the mentors for my team. We try to show students that are interested but mostly its limited to senior students who are taking physics.

Sometimes this means, I have action items that can't be performed by a student but sometimes watching a mentor work through a calculation, through a CAD model or a laser cutter with worthwhile enough for a student.

[hipsterjr]

342 explains to the parents every year that over the coarse this ratio shift. Preseason/Week 1 it is 90%mentor 10% students as we teach the students. By week 6 it is 10% mentors and 90% students as they have learned the skills and take over the show. My the time regionals come, it is 99% students with the mentor stepping in only when absolutely needed or to give advice. That's why if you vistit 342's pit, most of the mentors are sitting in chairs .

[dsirovica]

Originally Posted by wireties

There is another angle on the mentor role that isn't mentioned often in this thread. Most (but not all) of the first tier teams have been around for a while. Why is that? I think that mentors and teachers help keep the "corporate" memory of the team. Older students pass on many things to younger students but the teachers and mentors are direct links to the past. And the past has value...

This is a very important point, and I'd like to take this further: What mechanisms does this program have to cumulatively add knowledge for the benefit of all teams in future seasons?

It would be really cool and powerful, if there were a mechanism to purify and grow knowledge using crowdsourcing. Kind of like a wikipedia for FIRST.

Maybe this ought to go into its own thread?

Dean

[SteveGPage]

Originally Posted by nileshp87

I think we can all agree that there exists some teams where the mentors do all or most of the work on the robot.

To me personally, as a student, FIRST is FRC is a competition that takes place in high school. Having a robot be built almost entirely by mentors feels akin to cheating (or maybe bad sportsmanship).

Think of it as a spelling bee with little kids in it, then some adult comes and spells all the words for his\her kid in their place. Then tries to play it off as some kind of educational experience.

I can understand how you feel that way, but to use your own analogy, FRC is a competition that takes place in high school, but the challenge is that the rules and requirements of the competition are designed for someone in college. FRC is going to force you to stretch beyond what you have ever done before, and beyond what you have ever learned before. We, the mentors, want to give you knowledge to do so, and since FIRST doesn't expect you to know how to do it on your own, they have set up the competition to give you that level of support. It isn't cheating use the help that FIRST has put there for you.

There is a great quote, which I'll paraphrase since I don't recall the exact wording, from the book "The New Cool" --- "Why would I want to build a bicycle by myself, when I could build a Ferrari, with the help of a mentor?"

We just want you to be able to the do the best you can do, which is why most of us are here.

[wireties]

Originally Posted by nileshp87

I think we can all agree that there exists some teams where the mentors do all or most of the work on the robot.

I've been a FRC mentor for 9 years now and have never seen one. There are many philosophies to be sure but none, that I am aware of, where the mentors do ALL the work.

Originally Posted by nileshp87

To me personally, as a student, FIRST is FRC is a competition that takes place in high school. Having a robot be built almost entirely by mentors feels akin to cheating (or maybe bad sportsmanship).

Think of it as a spelling bee with little kids in it, then some adult comes and spells all the words for his\her kid in their place. Then tries to play it off as some kind of educational experience.

No offense intended but perhaps a competition that is totally student-designed and student-built is a better environment for you. There are numerous such fun and awesome events.

FRC is orders of magnitude more complex than spelling, or any sport played with a ball (most of which I also love to play). It is a rare group of high school students that could build a first-tier FRC bot in 6 weeks. It just can't be done - the league would have to change fundamentally or die. And before we mention the many very talented seniors on most teams, remember where they learned their skills.

I started mentoring a team 9 years ago, not to re-live my youth but to influence my son's decision to become an engineer. He graduated with an EE degree 4 years ago. My daughter will graduate in May with an EE degree. Both won design competitions at school and credit their FRC experience. I continue as a mentor because the teacher/coach and I became good friends. My experience is typical, not extraordinary. FRC mentors participate with an outward-focus and a heart and mind for service.

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by nileshp87

@team buzz person:
You do not need to invite me to see how your team operates, I have already witnessed it in the pits last year at the competition. I will leave it at that.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I can only hope you grow out of your blindness soon.[/quote]