Lost Bag and Tag

[scottydoh]

A good question is why did this come up now? over 18 hours past the "Stop Build" time?

But this brings up a question, does it have to be the FIRST supplied bag, or would any equal size/quality bag do?

[tomwinget]

I have no clue regarding the type of bag but I assume its supposed to be FRC supplied.

Last night, midnight, there was only three students actually working on the robot, by the time we realized we didn't have the bags, everyone was basically asleep. We haven't touched the robot or made any modifications seeing as nobody has actually been in the lab since then.

Any help would be great since I know each KOP was supposed to come with two separate bags.

Originally Posted by tomwinget

I have no clue regarding the type of bag but I assume its supposed to be FRC supplied.

Last night, midnight, there was only three students actually working on the robot, by the time we realized we didn't have the bags, everyone was basically asleep. We haven't touched the robot or made any modifications seeing as nobody has actually been in the lab since then.

Any help would be great since I know each KOP was supposed to come with two separate bags.

We MAY have an extra bag you can use, I'll ask my mentors. It may be used for our bumpers, though...

[tomwinget]

Thank you very much in advance regardless of whether you have the extra or not.
It's my understanding that you don't actually need to bag your bumpers given the 30lb. of extra material you are allowed to bring.

Originally Posted by tomwinget

Thank you very much in advance regardless of whether you have the extra or not.
It's my understanding that you don't actually need to bag your bumpers given the 30lb. of extra material you are allowed to bring.

We're keeping half of our robot and working on it. Please note that by half I mean half of the physical robot, not half the weight of the robot. No way half our robot's weight is 30 pounds.

[RoboMom]

At 8:31 am tomorrow EST I suggest you call 800-871-8326 ext. 0.

[FRC BOTMOM]

Sorry to hear your Team has lost its bags.

Tip for next year. Give the bag and tags to a teacher or mentor in charge for safe keeping. This is what our team did. The teacher gave them back to us a few days before bag and tag.

The team put them in a safe place in our work room and told everyone what they were for and not to touch them. We also included multiple copies of the stop build day form just in case we could not access it from the computer on stop build day.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

By now I assume you have contacted First and found out how to handle the bag but you must get it bagged and tagged ASAP and fill out the paperwork.

To others who claim to be working on parts of their robot or have kept parts of their robot to work on after the stop build period. This is not allowed. You must bag your entire robot and bumpers if you have made them already.

[R19]
The Robot (including items intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the Robot, excluding items permitted per Rule[R26]) must be bagged or crated (as appropriate for your event), and out of team hands by the shipment deadline specified in the FRC Administrative Manual, Section 5.

[R20]
Teams must stay “hands-off” their Robot from Stop Build Day until their first competition, during the period(s) between their competitions, and outside of pit hours while attending competitions; there are no restrictions on when software may be developed. Specific exceptions are as follows:
A. On days a team is not attending an event, they may continue development of any items permitted per Rule[R26], but must do so without interfacing with the Robot.
B. Teams attending 2-day events may access their Robots per the rules defined in the Administrative Manual,Section 5.7, Robot Access Period - for Teams Attending 2-Day Events.


[R26]
Teams may bring a maximum of 30 lbs of Fabricated Items to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their Robot at the competition site. The Operator Console and any battery assemblies (see [R03]-A) are not
applicable.

This means you can assemble spares, manufacture parts that will upgrade the parts currently in place on the robot (i.e. making something that is stronger than the part currently on the robot) or simply hold out parts that are already finished like bumpers, if and only if they total less than 30lbs. Any other items must be assembled at your event.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

By now I assume you have contacted First and found out how to handle the bag but you must get it bagged and tagged ASAP and fill out the paperwork.

To others who claim to be working on parts of their robot or have kept parts of their robot to work on after the stop build period. This is not allowed. You must bag your entire robot and bumpers if you have made them already.

[R19]
The Robot (including items intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the Robot, excluding items permitted per Rule[R26]) must be bagged or crated (as appropriate for your event), and out of team hands by the shipment deadline specified in the FRC Administrative Manual, Section 5.

[R20]
Teams must stay “hands-off” their Robot from Stop Build Day until their first competition, during the period(s) between their competitions, and outside of pit hours while attending competitions; there are no restrictions on when software may be developed. Specific exceptions are as follows:
A. On days a team is not attending an event, they may continue development of any items permitted per Rule[R26], but must do so without interfacing with the Robot.
B. Teams attending 2-day events may access their Robots per the rules defined in the Administrative Manual,Section 5.7, Robot Access Period - for Teams Attending 2-Day Events.


[R26]
Teams may bring a maximum of 30 lbs of Fabricated Items to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their Robot at the competition site. The Operator Console and any battery assemblies (see [R03]-A) are not
applicable.

This means you can assemble spares, manufacture parts that will upgrade the parts currently in place on the robot (i.e. making something that is stronger than the part currently on the robot) or simply hold out parts that are already finished like bumpers, if and only if they total less than 30lbs. Any other items must be assembled at your event.

Al, I read upgrade in [R26] to also mean add functionality. Taking a robot with no ball manipulation ability and giving it some is certainly an upgrade.

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

This means you can assemble spares, manufacture parts that will upgrade the parts currently in place on the robot (i.e. making something that is stronger than the part currently on the robot) or simply hold out parts that are already finished like bumpers, if and only if they total less than 30lbs. Any other items must be assembled at your event.

I don't think the following Q/A agrees with you.

Game - The Robot » Material Utilization » R26
Q. Just to clarify rule [R26], what is considered to be an upgrade part? While replacements/repair parts are self-explanitory, one could argue that any improvement is an upgrade, including addition of an entire sub-system that weighs exactly or less than 30 lbs. FRC2423 2012-02-20
A. Rule [R26] allows 30lbs of Fabricated Items, as defined in Rule [R22].

If they had wanted to ban new mechanisms, they would have explicitly said so in the answer to the Q/A, rather then referring to [R22].

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Joe,
R22 relates to modified COTS so I was and still am confused by this response.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Joe,
R22 relates to modified COTS so I was and still am confused by this response.

It seems pretty clear to me. You buy things that are COTS. You modify them, cut, drill, mount things and now it is called a Fabricated item. You are allowed 30lbs of fabricated items. There are no restrictions on what is a fabricated item, other than it used to be a COTS that you modified in any way.

Modified COTS is a fabricated item. Measured and cut stock is fabricated. Measured, cut, mounted, repeat, assemble is fabricated.

[robert.hatchett]

I empathize with you as you lost the bags, but any plastic bag will probably suffice as long as appropriately tagged and lock-out paperwork is followed.

What concerns me most about this thread is the discussion about continuiing work. The entire concept of the build season is that work STOPS midnight-local for everyone.

I suggest everyone review the rules around work stoppage (mechanical and electrical). There are allowances for spares/etc within the confines of the rules, but essentially all work stops as of this past Tuesday.

It is not fair to other teams that follow the prescribed schedule for anyone to violate the schedule and the rules are specific about what is allowed and not.

I would also remind everyone that, as Cheif Delphi's site has become the defacto FRC info site, this does become somewhat a record-keeping site for other teams/FIRST referees to refer to - AKA your comments are public knowledge as to "skirting" the rules.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

To jump way back in the thread Joe and Wetz,
The answer still is confusing. Why answer the question with a reference to fabricated items when the question is about upgrades?

[fox46]

Here is my interpretation of the rule- and please jump in if you think I'm wrong. It has always been my understanding that you can hold back 30lbs worth of your competition-ready robot. For example, when there have been years of extreme weather when teams have been unable to make it to their shops to build, FIRST has upped this limit to 60lbs dictating that you only have to ship half your robot.

Lets say your team puts a shooter on the robot but prior to shipping, decides to remove it for use on their practice robot. This shooter counts as part of their 30 lbs which they can fine tune and then bring with them to the competition for reinstallation on the machine. If however, they leave it on the robot as bagged and bring an identical duplicate mechanism to the competition, this counts as a replacement part and is not included in the weight allowance. If the team leaves the shooter on the robot and builds an improved version of the same mechanism, this would count as part of the 30lbs since it is unlike the one on their machine. However, if only the shooter wheel was different, they could remove the wheel and count the shooter chassis as a direct replacement part, excluded from the 30 lbs and the wheel itself as an upgrade part - part of the 30 lbs.

Furthermore, if a team ships a kit chassis and then decides to build a 30 lb loader and shooter, they can indeed bring this mechanism as a an "upgrade part" to the competition limited by the 30 lbs. BUT if they were to build the shooter and bag it, the kit chassis, motors and control system could be brought seperately as a COTS item provided it had not been assembled or modified in any way.

To take this even further, run with it if you will- this team could bag nothing, bring the kit chassis and all components in unassembled state, fabricate a custom launcher after the build date weighing less than 30lbs and bring the whole lot to the competition. They could walk in and assemble the KOP frame, install their custom <30lb shooter and install their COTS control system components to effectively assemble their robot at the competition without being affected by StopBuild day. I would feel that this contravenes the spirit of the competition but could be a strategy for time-strapped rookies.

Direct replacement parts and components as purchased from a supplier would be excluded from the 30lb limit. Ie: a window motor is considered a COTS item, but bolt it to a custom mounting plate that is not currently in your bag and tag, the window motor and mounting plate bolted together count as a fabricated item for part of your 30 lbs. Unbolt the window motor from said plate and only the plate counts as part of your 30 lbs.

If an identical plate exists on your robot as bagged, the window motor and plate in any state of attachment are counted as replacement parts.

Is this correct? I have talked with quite a few teams and this seems to be the understanding.