Basketball Traditions at FIRST Events

[Duke461]

Originally Posted by nukemknight

I think FIRST will frown on cutting the nets. I know the nets only cost $5 but if the winning alliance cuts off 3 nets at every event, thats over $1000 in replacement nets.

That's only 1/5 of what one robot at one competition pays to get in.

51 events
~45 robots per event
51*45 = ~2295 registered robots total (including multi-event robots)
2295*$5000= $11,475,000 total registration cost
$1000 for nets/$11,475,000 *100 (for %) total registration cost means:
Replacing the nets is roughly 0.087% of the total cost of robots attending competitions.

As for time, can you, being someone who volunteered to work hard for 2 days straight, not take another 10 minutes to fix the nets, so that the winning teams can enjoy a priceless experience, and be able to take another tangible piece of their victory home?


All this being said, I'd say why not?
-duke

P.S. If Nate Laverdure's calculations are correct, make that 0.0036%

[Nate Laverdure]

Originally Posted by nukemknight

I know the nets only cost $5 but if the winning alliance cuts off 3 nets at every event, thats over $1000 in replacement nets.

If a playing field isn't being sent on to another competition site, the cost of giving away a net is a sunk cost.

EDIT: Put another way-- why replace a net that won't be used in the next week?

My calculations (attached) tell me that implementing the 3-net-per-event giveaway scheme will require a total of 127 extra nets (beyond the minimum number already purchased). Assuming $5/net, this will cost $635.

[Chris is me]

I really do hope that people plan on asking before cutting. It doesn't matter how you rationalize it - cost wise, tradition wise - you're not the one who has to replace it, so it really isn't your choice.

To clarify: I think it'd be awesome if it's allowed, and if I was on the drive team this year I'd probably beg. If it weren't for the potential jinx, I'd have a replacement net ready to go in the pit!

[1986titans]

If the cost is really that big of a deal, let teams that cut down a net donate towards a replacement.

[bduddy]

How about this - teams can bring net(s) to the competition (make sure they're identical!) to replace those that they, or other teams, would cut down. I think it would be a great moment for the teams involved.

[PayneTrain]

If fortunate enough to win the competition, teams would pay the event for on-hand replacements and install the nets for the staff. Who is hurting now?

[kjohnson]

Originally Posted by Duke461

As for time, can you, being someone who volunteered to work hard for 2 days straight, not take another 10 minutes to fix the nets, so that the winning teams can enjoy a priceless experience, and be able to take another tangible piece of their victory home?

I volunteer at a regional each year and work for 3.5 days straight. The end goal of the regional (other than a successful competition) is to provide the greatest experience to the teams, but why do that at an extra expense to FIRST? Sure, teams pay a $5000 entry fee but that covers more costs than just $5 nets. I understand that cutting nets is a basketball tradition and the field nets would be a great low cost souvenir for the winning teams.

Dan-o's suggestion of buying a matching net and bringing to the event may be the best route if any team really wants to pursue this. If the nets were available and it were up to me, I would allow it... but its not up to me. Ultimately its FIRST's decision. The fields have already been shipped with all their spare parts. I doubt FIRST planned for teams to cut the nets so there probably isn't a full set of new nets included for each event.

Originally Posted by Nate Laverdure

If a playing field isn't being sent on to another competition site, the cost of giving away a net is a sunk cost.

EDIT: Put another way-- why replace a net that won't be used in the next week?

Nate,
My quick calculation was based on simply the 69 events (not including Championship) listed on the FRC events page. 69x3x$5 = $1,035. I understand your reasoning and calculations regarding the number of field sets and concurrent events. That being said, you didn't account for the 4 practice fields at Championship or if the division winners would want to cut their nets. It doesn't make much of a difference in the end result but I'd hate to see your calculation be incorrect.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Dan-o

If anyone is really considering doing this, I suggest buying a net and bringing it to the Regional Field Supervisor. I would offer to install it after the award ceremony if a team wanted to cut it down in celebration. If he says yes, great. If he says no, there's no way I'd mess with the field.

I think a net could be a cool commemorative item for winning teams, but the ultimate focus must be on being respectful towards the field crew who worked so hard to ensure each student had a positive experience.

Just my $0.02

Isn't the ultimate focus on the event attendees, and inspiring students?

[EricH]

It's still the staff that's hurting, and here's why:

They have to pack the field up.

What usually happens at an event is that as soon as the final match is over, the staff starts preparing for takedown--maybe some electronics come back to the scorer's table, maybe some zipties get cut, maybe the packing manual comes out. As soon as the awards ceremony is over, while teams are taking pictures on the field (if it's safe do do so), the electronics come down and a lot of the "minor" stuff like the field side shields come down, then one of the alliance stations comes down. Then the other, and whatever's in the middle of the field. Then the field gets packed up (and if the field crew is lucky, the practice field is already stowed and they've got lots of help). If the field crew is really, really, good and the event ends on time, they're out by 6-7 PM. Teams are out by 5-6, usually.

Every time the net has to be replaced due to a team cutting it down, that's time that the field crew has to wait. At 3 nets/event (and that's if the RCA, EI, RAS, and maybe other random teams DON'T cut down a net), and if you figure that it takes 5 minutes per net to cut down and replace, not counting getting the ladder, that's 15 minutes that the field teardown has to wait before getting going on part X of the field, given that teams don't do the cutdown/replace all at once.

As a volunteer, I realize that teams want to celebrate. But doggone it, I want to get home after being at the venue for three days dealing with all the issues that crop up! (And for those who don't know: the volunteers' day at the venue is longer than yours. They're usually in the building a half-hour to hour before you are, depending on position.) I'm really not going to enjoy it if team A asks to cut down the net (and is prepared to replace it) and then team B sees team A and thinks "hey, great idea!" and starts cutting down another one, because now, not only do I have to get a net replaced that I hadn't planned on (or my field's next FTA does), but maybe teams C, D, and E see team B cutting down the net, and team A having cut one down, and decide "great idea, let's do it!" Then you get the "If they're allowed to do it, why are we not?" discussion.

IF you want to cut down the net, talk to the FTA/Field Supervisor first. Preferably as soon as possible on Saturday. That way, they can plan somewhat on how to deal with it. And if they say no, then just accept that and move on.

[Nate Laverdure]

Originally Posted by nukemknight

...That being said, you didn't account for the 4 practice fields at Championship or if the division winners would want to cut their nets.

After incorporating these changes:

• With 3 nets given to each winning alliance, 153 extra nets ($765) are required.
• With 1 net/alliance, 37 extra nets ($185) are required.

Originally Posted by nukemknight

...I'd hate to see your calculation be incorrect.

You forgot the [sarcasm][/sarcasm] tags

[Cory]

Originally Posted by EricH

It's still the staff that's hurting, and here's why:

They have to pack the field up.

What usually happens at an event is that as soon as the final match is over, the staff starts preparing for takedown--maybe some electronics come back to the scorer's table, maybe some zipties get cut, maybe the packing manual comes out. As soon as the awards ceremony is over, while teams are taking pictures on the field (if it's safe do do so), the electronics come down and a lot of the "minor" stuff like the field side shields come down, then one of the alliance stations comes down. Then the other, and whatever's in the middle of the field. Then the field gets packed up (and if the field crew is lucky, the practice field is already stowed and they've got lots of help). If the field crew is really, really, good and the event ends on time, they're out by 6-7 PM. Teams are out by 5-6, usually.

Every time the net has to be replaced due to a team cutting it down, that's time that the field crew has to wait. At 3 nets/event (and that's if the RCA, EI, RAS, and maybe other random teams DON'T cut down a net), and if you figure that it takes 5 minutes per net to cut down and replace, not counting getting the ladder, that's 15 minutes that the field teardown has to wait before getting going on part X of the field, given that teams don't do the cutdown/replace all at once.

As a volunteer, I realize that teams want to celebrate. But doggone it, I want to get home after being at the venue for three days dealing with all the issues that crop up! (And for those who don't know: the volunteers' day at the venue is longer than yours. They're usually in the building a half-hour to hour before you are, depending on position.) I'm really not going to enjoy it if team A asks to cut down the net (and is prepared to replace it) and then team B sees team A and thinks "hey, great idea!" and starts cutting down another one, because now, not only do I have to get a net replaced that I hadn't planned on (or my field's next FTA does), but maybe teams C, D, and E see team B cutting down the net, and team A having cut one down, and decide "great idea, let's do it!" Then you get the "If they're allowed to do it, why are we not?" discussion.

IF you want to cut down the net, talk to the FTA/Field Supervisor first. Preferably as soon as possible on Saturday. That way, they can plan somewhat on how to deal with it. And if they say no, then just accept that and move on.

This is much ado about nothing. It doesn't even take 5 minutes to swap a net. It takes 30 seconds. Everyone is arguing about a problem that doesn't exist.

Besides, the people who get the field at the next event are the ones who will need to assess the nets and determine if they need replacing.

All told the only cost is the price of the net. There is no cost in time and labor.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Cory

This is much ado about nothing. It doesn't even take 5 minutes to swap a net. It takes 30 seconds. Everyone is arguing about a problem that doesn't exist.

Besides, the people who get the field at the next event are the ones who will need to assess the nets and determine if they need replacing.

All told the only cost is the price of the net. There is no cost in time and labor.

30 seconds, and a net, per net. You're assuming that once one team does it, the rest don't decide to. See the run on tubes at the 2007 Championship and the trouble the field crew had keeping people out of the orbit ball supply after 2009's L.A. Regional when one team was allowed to take some home (and they had a good reason that the rest of the teams didn't--namely, genuine orbit balls were unobtanium at home for all time).

You're also moving the replace time into field setup--while this might not have any impact on overall time to set up, the FTA there (wherever "there" happens to be) isn't going to be terribly happy about having to replace the nets. Even with advance notice from the previous FTA

If a team wanted to bring their own net, bring it to the field, and cut it down, fine--if they talk to the FTA/Field Supervisor about it first. If you don't talk to them, I would advise NOT cutting down a net.



I was actually thinking that the chalk toss might be a better tradition to do in a FIRST event. Something about the field markings get chalked down anyway before taping... It's just that nobody sees that except the setup crew.

[Justin Montois]

Tough call. In the moments afterward it's going to be hard not to want too.

Ask your FTA. Give them 5 bucks. Amirite?

[Madison]

This is stupid.

If we win an event and can take the net, I'll mail FIRST $5 and install a new net myself.

[JaneYoung]

The nets are a part of the field. Has it ever been ok to vandalize the field in the name of a 'winning tradition'? I'm asking, not being sarcastic.

What comes to mind is the rush for the leftover tubes at CHPs a few years back and what a nightmare that was. Cutting the nets could be pretty interesting regarding crowd control. Then what would the damage costs be? Again, I'm just asking.

Alternate idea, buy a toy hoop and cut the net. You absorb the costs and have a net as a symbol that you can use for display purposes with your trophy and medals. Brand it in advance and use it as an incentive to be able to cut it at your event(s).

Jane