Teams: Check Your Bumpers

[MrForbes]

If you put the corner noodle on the side bumper instead of the short front bumper, then you could make the front bumper only about 8" wide. But why would you do that, if you need to make the number fit the short front bumper?

We used longer noodles on our short front bumpers, so they would be the thing that filled in the corner. No problem fitting our 4 digit number on there. But we didn't get the stroke width right....it's almost 3/4". I think they'll pass?

The rules are kind of complex, and they do kind of dictate how you can design parts of the robot. Of course it turns out that if we'd have played with the balls more at the beginning of build season and discovered how they behave, we probably would not have split the front bumper, we would have just made our intake under the bumper, as wide as possible....since it's so easy to drive over the balls.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by squirrel

If you put the corner noodle on the side bumper instead of the short front bumper, then you could make the front bumper only about 8" wide. But why would you do that, if you need to make the number fit the short front bumper?

We used longer noodles on our short front bumpers, so they would be the thing that filled in the corner. No problem fitting our 4 digit number on there. But we didn't get the stroke width right....it's almost 3/4". I think they'll pass?

The rules are kind of complex, and they do kind of dictate how you can design parts of the robot. Of course it turns out that if we'd have played with the balls more at the beginning of build season, we probably would not have split the front bumper, we would have just made our intake under the bumper, as wide as possible....since it's so easy to drive over the balls.

IMO, your numbers are very readable from a distance, and the stroke width isn't so much smaller that it's noticeable. have a plan if you need to, but i'm going to guess no one will notice, unless the inspector actually measures the numbers!

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by topgun

Furthermore, the whole "at the ends" in R33 is going to be a bigger problem for teams than R35.

This. I asked the GDC two pretty specific questions on this. The answers were less than helpful.

Q. How much tolerance is for attaching at the "end" of the bumper? Do we need to attach within 4" of the physical end? 1"? At the infinitesimal point at the end of the bumper? Physical constraints may make it difficult to place two perpendicular fasteners at the same infinitesimal point in space.
A. If it appears that a Bumper is rigidly attached at the end to a reasonably astute observer, it will be considered attached "at the end".

Q. Where is the end of a Bumper? We have bumpers that are two 8" pieces of plywood rigidly attached perpendicular to each other at the corner, plus noodle cloth, etc. Do we have to attach to the frame perimeter at just the two end points of this L shaped bumper, or at the corner as well?
A. If it appears that a Bumper is rigidly attached at the end to a reasonably astute observer, it will be considered attached "at the end".

I especially like how the second one completely fails to answer the question. But I'll whip it out when if inspector points out that we're not attaching our L bumpers in the corner. Then at least attempt to argue that the ends of the L actually are the ends of the bumpers.

I'm thinking about asking if they want to comment on what "attached" means. Specifically if they're going judge by whether the bumper is stiffly and securely held against the frame perimeter, or whether they want to see a physical fastener "at the end" of the bumper. I think the former option makes a lot more sense than the latter.

[PayneTrain]

Good thing we will be able to fix a non-issue on a bumper on Thursday morning. I wouldn't want to help make sure every other robot at the event can be inspection-ready as fast as possible. I guess people would be confused and assume our number was 422422 if we had our number on both sides, so this rule makes complete sense.

I honestly don't understand why I can't have the numbers on both sides of the front. That isn't going to confuse people any more than splitting the numbers. If bumpers are here to stay, I wish the rules on how they look wouldn't be so ridiculous.

[BrendanB]

I find the worst part of this years rules besides being vague is no more or less than four locations for your numbers. By placing your numbers on both sides of the gap you just double the ease to see your team number. I understand the no less than 4 places but more than 4 doesn't make sense.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by BrendanB

I find the worst part of this years rules besides being vague is no more or less than four locations for your numbers. By placing your numbers on both sides of the gap you just double the ease to see your team number. I understand the no less than 4 places but more than 4 doesn't make sense.

It's really unfortunate because our team busts their butts to build and put together high-quality competition bumpers that ideally satisfy all rules. We think that going above and beyond on a forgotten robot component is indicative of the effort we put into every aspect of the season. Now we're being told we can't have any more than 4 number placements (1 on each side), when this wasn't a problem in 2009.

Who is hurt by having the number duplicated? How hard would it have been to include the phrase "no fewer, no more" in the rulebook?

I imagine that last sentence can be repeated for a lot of vague rules in and outside of bumper requirements. We get a rulebook in 2011 that's thicker than an AP Physics textbook:too wordy and complex. This year we get a rulebook that is thin enough to be interpreted any which way a team could desire, although we can't read the minds up in Manchester as to the full extent of the rule.

I guess I should have Q&A'd this earlier, but this seems like such a non-issue to me.

[Jon Stratis]

PayneTrain and BrendanB -

The ruling behind the exactly 4 locations AND not splitting the number makes sense when you think about practical applications at a regional. Lets say teams 20 and 2020 are both at the same regional. If numbers could be split, 2020 splitting their numbers on both sides of a gap might look like team 20 at a glance. Likewise, if numbers could appear multiple times on the same side, 20 might look like team 2020 if they had their number on both sides of the gap.

Now, some people will argue that the full number is on the side of the robot... well, this year that doesn't have to be the case - you could have gaps on all 4 sides of the robot, and duplicate this issue on all 8 bumper segments.

The GDC is trying to go with the easiest solution to making the team numbers visible, readable, and understandable to everyone in the stadium. that includes ref's and scouters, as well as those not as familiar with FIRST, like friends, family, sponsors, or other visiting organizations (we've seen girl scout troops check it out more than a few times).

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Taylor

Would it be permissible to cover over the numbers with red/blue gaffers tape to be compliant with the 4 and only 4 ruling?

I'd be leery of gaffer's tape, unless it has a true "fabric" surface. The rules state "fabric" and I'd expect that to be enforced.

Can you paint over the errant digits? Matching the color would easy enough - go to any paint store, they have these nifty color matching machines. A quart of acrylic latex paint would go far.

[Cal578]

It didn't hurt our team any (because we didn't put the numbers on our bumper covers until the Q&A was answered), but I was surprised that the answer was "no fewer, no more". Having already declared that splitting the number was illegal (good call, IMO), there would be no confusion caused by putting the full team number on both sides of a gap; if anything, that would make it even easier for everyone to read.

But, it's done, and we all deal with it. Rather like the customer who says, "that spec isn't what I meant; I want it this way." Real world!

Good luck, everyone.

[engunneer]

Someone else should ask via Q&A what the legal ways to cover up extra numbers might be. (I don't have access).

[jyh947]

Personally, I have to say that getting 4 numbers (that arn't 1's) is very hard. I honestly had to make the numbers cut into each other in order to make the font fit nicely.

[Grim Tuesday]

I would also like to warn teams that you must place the number at 90 degree intervals. In my eyes, this means that if you have a hole for intake, you must offset the number to one side on your other 3 bumper sides.

[nitneylion452]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

I would also like to warn teams that you must place the number at 90 degree intervals. In my eyes, this means that if you have a hole for intake, you must offset the number to one side on your other 3 bumper sides.

Not the case.

Q. The intended purpose of the "approximately 90° intervals" clause is unclear. Given a rectangular robot, if the numbers on a bumper begin/end at the extreme left end, can the numbers on an adjacent bumper be centered horizontally, or must they also be placed at the extreme left end? FRC3667 2012-02-16
A. The requirement is that the numbers be viewable from approximately 90° intervals around the Robot. There is no requirement on exactly where, within that 90° interval the numbers are.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

I would also like to warn teams that you must place the number at 90 degree intervals. In my eyes, this means that if you have a hole for intake, you must offset the number to one side on your other 3 bumper sides.

I think that rule is for any team inexplicably attempting a holonomic system this year.

[Steve Ketron]

I don't see in the rule were you have to have all for numbers on one of the 8" bumpers. The question was about having two team numbers on the front (which is illegal).

If I put 15 on the right front bumper and 28 on the left front bumper, then on have created 1528 (our team number) on the front location of our robot. I do not see anywhere in the rules that say's this is a violation. Just to make sure, I posted this on the Q&A and should have an answer soon.

Teams that are thinking that they have to redo their bumpers because of this scenerio, please wait for the GDC to answer my question.