Lost Bag and Tag

[Joe Ross]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

This means you can assemble spares, manufacture parts that will upgrade the parts currently in place on the robot (i.e. making something that is stronger than the part currently on the robot) or simply hold out parts that are already finished like bumpers, if and only if they total less than 30lbs. Any other items must be assembled at your event.

I don't think the following Q/A agrees with you.

Game - The Robot » Material Utilization » R26
Q. Just to clarify rule [R26], what is considered to be an upgrade part? While replacements/repair parts are self-explanitory, one could argue that any improvement is an upgrade, including addition of an entire sub-system that weighs exactly or less than 30 lbs. FRC2423 2012-02-20
A. Rule [R26] allows 30lbs of Fabricated Items, as defined in Rule [R22].

If they had wanted to ban new mechanisms, they would have explicitly said so in the answer to the Q/A, rather then referring to [R22].

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Joe,
R22 relates to modified COTS so I was and still am confused by this response.

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Joe,
R22 relates to modified COTS so I was and still am confused by this response.

It seems pretty clear to me. You buy things that are COTS. You modify them, cut, drill, mount things and now it is called a Fabricated item. You are allowed 30lbs of fabricated items. There are no restrictions on what is a fabricated item, other than it used to be a COTS that you modified in any way.

Modified COTS is a fabricated item. Measured and cut stock is fabricated. Measured, cut, mounted, repeat, assemble is fabricated.

[robert.hatchett]

I empathize with you as you lost the bags, but any plastic bag will probably suffice as long as appropriately tagged and lock-out paperwork is followed.

What concerns me most about this thread is the discussion about continuiing work. The entire concept of the build season is that work STOPS midnight-local for everyone.

I suggest everyone review the rules around work stoppage (mechanical and electrical). There are allowances for spares/etc within the confines of the rules, but essentially all work stops as of this past Tuesday.

It is not fair to other teams that follow the prescribed schedule for anyone to violate the schedule and the rules are specific about what is allowed and not.

I would also remind everyone that, as Cheif Delphi's site has become the defacto FRC info site, this does become somewhat a record-keeping site for other teams/FIRST referees to refer to - AKA your comments are public knowledge as to "skirting" the rules.

[Timz3082]

Originally Posted by robert.hatchett

I empathize with you as you lost the bags, but any plastic bag will probably suffice as long as appropriately tagged and lock-out paperwork is followed.

What concerns me most about this thread is the discussion about continuiing work. The entire concept of the build season is that work STOPS midnight-local for everyone.

I suggest everyone review the rules around work stoppage (mechanical and electrical). There are allowances for spares/etc within the confines of the rules, but essentially all work stops as of this past Tuesday.

It is not fair to other teams that follow the prescribed schedule for anyone to violate the schedule and the rules are specific about what is allowed and not.

I would also remind everyone that, as Cheif Delphi's site has become the defacto FRC info site, this does become somewhat a record-keeping site for other teams/FIRST referees to refer to - AKA your comments are public knowledge as to "skirting" the rules.

This has some truth, but you are wrong on one point. FIRST allows for upgrade parts to be brought in, lets say our turret was functioning poorly, or needed programming, we could keep this and bring it in as an "upgrade" part of the withholding allowance. I see no problem with this.

[nitneylion452]

Originally Posted by robert.hatchett

I empathize with you as you lost the bags, but any plastic bag will probably suffice as long as appropriately tagged and lock-out paperwork is followed.

What concerns me most about this thread is the discussion about continuiing work. The entire concept of the build season is that work STOPS midnight-local for everyone.

I suggest everyone review the rules around work stoppage (mechanical and electrical). There are allowances for spares/etc within the confines of the rules, but essentially all work stops as of this past Tuesday.

It is not fair to other teams that follow the prescribed schedule for anyone to violate the schedule and the rules are specific about what is allowed and not.

I would also remind everyone that, as Cheif Delphi's site has become the defacto FRC info site, this does become somewhat a record-keeping site for other teams/FIRST referees to refer to - AKA your comments are public knowledge as to "skirting" the rules.

As has been stated in previous posts, the rules states that teams can bring up to 30lbs of fabricated parts to repair and/or upgrade their robot. Let's say my robot has no shooter. During the time after stop build day and my first event, I can work on a shooter (that is currently not a part of the robot) and develop it. When I attach my <= 30lb shooter to my competition robot at competition I am upgrading my robot's functionality by adding a shooter.

This process is completely legal and is actually one of the main reasons the formerly named "withholding allowance" was implemented in FRC.


EDIT:

With regard to the topic, you absolutely must call FIRST until after your phone stops ringing you hear a person say, "Thank you for calling USFIRST. This is *name* speaking. How may I help you?"

Obviously, that is not what they will actually say but you should get the point. You're rapidly approaching 72 hours of the robot not being in the bag and that is NOT OK!!!

[Justin Stiltner]

Get your robot sealed up in whatever bag you have, you will have to fill out the non compliance form, and if the same procedure as last year is followed there will need to be signatures from the head inspector(s), head ref, and it seems like one other person. Just to alert you to the gravity of the situation, this could prevent your team from competing this year in any event.

I recall doing two of these forms last year for teams simply forgetting their lock up form, and it does take a while to track down everyone that needs to sign it and tell them the story, all the while your team will be sitting looking at your robot in the bag not allowed to open it or begin working on it until the forms have been completed.

Good Luck.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

To jump way back in the thread Joe and Wetz,
The answer still is confusing. Why answer the question with a reference to fabricated items when the question is about upgrades?

[Travis Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

To jump way back in the thread Joe and Wetz,
The answer still is confusing. Why answer the question with a reference to fabricated items when the question is about upgrades?

FIRST seems to have omitted the term glossary it usually includes in the Introduction section of the Game Manual that clearly defines capitalized terms such as "Fabricated Items" and "Mechanism". If they stuck it somewhere else, please point it out - I sure as heck couldn't locate it.

So all teams have to go by is the 2011 definitions. If FIRST didn't take it upon themselves to provide definitions for 2012, teams must presume that the definitions didn't change. At this point, if FIRST released the definitions and any were significantly different from the 2011 defines, I think you'd have pitchforks and torches lining up in Manchester.

Anyway:

MECHANISM, 2011 – a COTS or custom assembly of COMPONENTS that provide specific functionality on
the ROBOT. A MECHANISM can be disassembled (and then reassembled) into individual
COMPONENTS without damage to the parts

FABRICATED ITEM, 2011 – any COMPONENT or MECHANISM that has been altered, built, cast,
constructed, concocted, created, cut, heat treated, machined, manufactured, modified, painted,
produced, surface coated, or conjured partially or completely into the final form in which it will be
used on the ROBOT.

[R26, 2012 Manual] - Teams may bring a maximum of 30 lbs of Fabricated Items to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their Robot at the competition site. The Operator Console and any battery assemblies (see [R03]-A) are not applicable.

******

Shooters, bridge tenders, etc. are "custom assemblies of components that provide specific functionality on the robot". They are therefore MECHANISMS.

A MECHANISM, by definition, is a FABRICATED ITEM.

Conclusion: teams may bring a maximum of 30 lbs of FABRICATED ITEMS - including MECHANISMS - to each competition.

Also, just because a team may have had a shooter on their bot at some point in the build, they do not HAVE to put that shooter in the bag. The team has full control over the functionality they choose to put in the bag. They have a right to withhold a portion of that functionality, putting the balance in the bag. They work to improve the shooter mechanism after stop build, they bring it to the venue legally as part of the allowable 30 lbs., and they then UPGRADE their robot's functionality with the shooter once they remove the bot from the bag.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

To jump way back in the thread Joe and Wetz,
The answer still is confusing. Why answer the question with a reference to fabricated items when the question is about upgrades?

R22: "...Once a COTS item is modified in any way, it becomes a Fabricated Item [emphasis mine]." It's, oddly, the only place they defined Fabricated Item, but it seems like a reasonable definition. Bring in as many unmodified COTS parts as you like, and 30lbs of modified COTS parts (=Fabricated Items). i.e., There is no restriction on what these modified COTS parts can be upgrading or used for, so long as they total less than 30lbs. It's one of the GDC's "read the rules, there's no restriction beyond them" calls. I don't think it even requires the 2011 definitions, though it certainly works that way.

[fox46]

I have not heard of this scenario but there is no way that a competition team (Head Ref, FTA, LRI) would allow them to tag team two robots. Most regionals would/should not even allow the second clone into the building. This competition is about one and only one robot built during the current build season. While you can build a second robot and use it for spares, (lot's of teams do this) you can't bring a complete second robot to compete.

Never the less it did indeed happen and I confirmed it with a couple of my former teamates. If my memory serves me right, it was the second year of the GTR regional - 2002? - stack attack. I remember discussing it amongst ourselves and when we asked if they had entered two robots the team confirmed that the second was their practice robot which they brought as a backup. Their intention as was explained was to swap their modular control system if they were to experience a mechanical breakdown and then continue competing with the clone. One of my former team mates recalls them boasting about how they could swap the control system in under a minute.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Rules were much different in 2002 but it was still one robot only.
1.2.2 Basic Gameplay

Each team competes using one team-built robot.

or in 2003 the WildStang rule...
M5 At the time of robot inspection, you must present all mechanisms that you will use on the robot during the entire competition event. It is acceptable, however, for a robot to play matches with a subset of the mechanisms that were present during inspection. Only mechanisms that were present during the inspection may be added,removed or reconfigured between matches. If subsets of mechanisms are changed between matches, the robot must still meet all inspection criteria. Robots must satisfy Rule M6 at all times.

[fox46]

I think we are on different wavelenths on this one-

They did indeed only have one robot, but they brought an entire robot's worth of replacement parts assembled in one cohesive machine. When the mechanical mechanism on their machine broke, they removed the mechanical mechanism from the robot (which was the portion which excluded the control system) and installed an identical replacement part in the form of the entire mechanical mechanism to their control system. Basically, there was no definition of a replacement part- this could be a single piece, or an entire mechanism- in their case, they called the entire mechanical system a mechanism and brought an identical replacement part.

[DonRotolo]

If their second robot weighed 30 lbs or less, they could do that this year too. Highly unlikely, but that was then and this is now.

Did timwinget ever contact FIRST or find a bag? I wonder.

Me, I'd have run off to Home Depot or Lowe's and got me a roll of clear polyethylene sheeting, wrapped the robot like a candy apple and tagged it shut at the top. Better than nothing.

[tomwinget]

Here is the final verdict.

I contacted FIRST and they got back to me saying that any bag, FIRST or non FIRST works perfectly fine and wouldn't have made a difference as long as FIRST is contacted.
Secondly, we are still in the competition as long as we fill out the lock-up form and bring in the email giving us the permission to use a different bag.

Thanks for all the suggestions which ultimately led to us working our way out of the mess and especially to Mountain View High School Robotics (Spartan Robotics 971) who gave us one of their extra bags.