Lost Bag and Tag

[fox46]

Here is my interpretation of the rule- and please jump in if you think I'm wrong. It has always been my understanding that you can hold back 30lbs worth of your competition-ready robot. For example, when there have been years of extreme weather when teams have been unable to make it to their shops to build, FIRST has upped this limit to 60lbs dictating that you only have to ship half your robot.

Lets say your team puts a shooter on the robot but prior to shipping, decides to remove it for use on their practice robot. This shooter counts as part of their 30 lbs which they can fine tune and then bring with them to the competition for reinstallation on the machine. If however, they leave it on the robot as bagged and bring an identical duplicate mechanism to the competition, this counts as a replacement part and is not included in the weight allowance. If the team leaves the shooter on the robot and builds an improved version of the same mechanism, this would count as part of the 30lbs since it is unlike the one on their machine. However, if only the shooter wheel was different, they could remove the wheel and count the shooter chassis as a direct replacement part, excluded from the 30 lbs and the wheel itself as an upgrade part - part of the 30 lbs.

Furthermore, if a team ships a kit chassis and then decides to build a 30 lb loader and shooter, they can indeed bring this mechanism as a an "upgrade part" to the competition limited by the 30 lbs. BUT if they were to build the shooter and bag it, the kit chassis, motors and control system could be brought seperately as a COTS item provided it had not been assembled or modified in any way.

To take this even further, run with it if you will- this team could bag nothing, bring the kit chassis and all components in unassembled state, fabricate a custom launcher after the build date weighing less than 30lbs and bring the whole lot to the competition. They could walk in and assemble the KOP frame, install their custom <30lb shooter and install their COTS control system components to effectively assemble their robot at the competition without being affected by StopBuild day. I would feel that this contravenes the spirit of the competition but could be a strategy for time-strapped rookies.

Direct replacement parts and components as purchased from a supplier would be excluded from the 30lb limit. Ie: a window motor is considered a COTS item, but bolt it to a custom mounting plate that is not currently in your bag and tag, the window motor and mounting plate bolted together count as a fabricated item for part of your 30 lbs. Unbolt the window motor from said plate and only the plate counts as part of your 30 lbs.

If an identical plate exists on your robot as bagged, the window motor and plate in any state of attachment are counted as replacement parts.

Is this correct? I have talked with quite a few teams and this seems to be the understanding.

[Mark McLeod]

Originally Posted by fox46

Is this correct? I have talked with quite a few teams and this seems to be the understanding.

I don't agree with your fabricated replacement part being exempt from the 30 lbs fabricated item limit.
Any and all fabricated items you bring in through the door counts as a portion of your 30 lbs fabricated limit.

Only completely stand-alone COTS parts in off-the-shelf condition are exempt from the 30 lb. fabricated limit.
Raw material not cut to fit your robot is also exempt from the fabrication limit.

By your strained logic, an unlimited parade of completely identical robots would be allowed.

[fox46]

Mark- after reading over the rule again, I agree with you now. - Even if teams bring a part identical to that on the robot, if it is fabricated, it must be included in the limit.

Teams may bring a maximum of 30 lbs of Fabricated Items to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their Robot at the competition site.

"Repair and/or upgrade."

[fox46]

By your strained logic, an unlimited parade of completely identical robots would be allowed.

You are correct- However, I do remember a number of years back being very upset by a team that had built a clone robot after Stop Build day. They brought the clone with them as a giant replacement part! The inspectors had reportedly scrutinized each one and had determined that they were identical. The team used them in a tag-team setup when their shipped robot broke, the clone was brought in to take its place. I think they swapped the control system though.

[tomwinget]

Although the responses have cleared up the questions regarding the 30 lb. limit on manufactured materials, it hasn't really helped my team out much regarding the bag issue.

Hopefully we have secured one bag but I still want to know if we have to use the FRC provided bags, or if there is any other way to Bag and Tag.

[Mark McLeod]

FIRST (800-871-8326 ext. 0) has the answer to your Bag question, we do not.
We can only conjecture, imagine, ponder, and express our opinions.
None of which are ultimately of any use to you whatsoever.
We are waiting to hear the final answer that you get.

Getting people to send you spare bags is actually pretty useful I suppose, but not making FIRST aware that your robot is and continues to be in violation of the Bag rule is decidedly not.

Why have you not contacted them directly?

[fox46]

Although the responses have cleared up the questions regarding the 30 lb. limit on manufactured materials, it hasn't really helped my team out much regarding the bag issue.

Hopefully we have secured one bag but I still want to know if we have to use the FRC provided bags, or if there is any other way to Bag and Tag.

Really? You haven't addressed this yet? Did you contact FIRST HQ?? They will have a definitive answer - do not rely on Chief Delphi for an answer to this question.

As has already been posted:

At 8:31 am tomorrow EST I suggest you call 800-871-8326 ext. 0

This is a major deal! If I were you I would just get it in ANY BAG- even if it's a bed sheet, blue poly tarp, burlap sac or an empty beanbag chair.

Get a security tag on it ASAP!

Complete the lockup form and fill out the bag and tag non-compliance form. Include a full copy of this thread.

[kevincrispie]

Contacting FIRST is absolutely the way to go. Until you have done so, you cannot consider your problem solved, even if you do get a bag. Many teams at this point have used their's up.

If you happen to need help at SVR, talk to some of the teams. We'll be there and are happy to help. All you have to do is ask.

[tomwinget]

Thanks a lot for the suggestions.
I have called FIRST, however my schedule makes it difficult to actually call them at 8:31 EST. I left a message and hopefully will get this all resolved.
Both Mountain View and Monta Vista have been gracious enough to offer us their extra bags so that part of the problem is solved.
By tomorrow I hope that FRC will have made contact and we can resolve the whole issue.

Once again, thanks to everyone for the suggestions, resolutions and support

[Cory]

Originally Posted by tomwinget

Thanks a lot for the suggestions.
I have called FIRST, however my schedule makes it difficult to actually call them at 8:31 EST. I left a message and hopefully will get this all resolved.
Both Mountain View and Monta Vista have been gracious enough to offer us their extra bags so that part of the problem is solved.
By tomorrow I hope that FRC will have made contact and we can resolve the whole issue.

Once again, thanks to everyone for the suggestions, resolutions and support

The urgency of your situation really cannot be emphasized enough. You or someone else from your team needs to be calling FIRST nonstop until you resolve this. The longer direct contact is not made between FIRST and your team, the deeper your hole becomes.

[RoboMom]

Originally Posted by tomwinget

Thanks a lot for the suggestions.
I have called FIRST, however my schedule makes it difficult to actually call them at 8:31 EST.

<sigh> You are making a joke, right? You do realize that my suggestion of the 8:31 EST time frame was to allow Operations to put down their cup of coffee before picking up the phone.
They will answer phones 8:30-5pm EST, M-F.
This really isn't about your schedule anymore. You need to be thinking a little broader.
Best wishes for continued effective problem-solving this season. We are just trying to help you.

I would suggest that you also contact your Regional Director at this point. You can find out how to reach this person by doing some searching here: http://www.usfirst.org/regional-contacts

[fox46]

Both Mountain View and Monta Vista have been gracious enough to offer us their extra bags so that part of the problem is solved.
By tomorrow I hope that FRC will have made contact and we can resolve the whole issue.

Okay... have you put it IN one of these bags yet with a security seal?

[robert.hatchett]

I empathize with you as you lost the bags, but any plastic bag will probably suffice as long as appropriately tagged and lock-out paperwork is followed.

What concerns me most about this thread is the discussion about continuiing work. The entire concept of the build season is that work STOPS midnight-local for everyone.

I suggest everyone review the rules around work stoppage (mechanical and electrical). There are allowances for spares/etc within the confines of the rules, but essentially all work stops as of this past Tuesday.

It is not fair to other teams that follow the prescribed schedule for anyone to violate the schedule and the rules are specific about what is allowed and not.

I would also remind everyone that, as Cheif Delphi's site has become the defacto FRC info site, this does become somewhat a record-keeping site for other teams/FIRST referees to refer to - AKA your comments are public knowledge as to "skirting" the rules.

[Timz3082]

Originally Posted by robert.hatchett

I empathize with you as you lost the bags, but any plastic bag will probably suffice as long as appropriately tagged and lock-out paperwork is followed.

What concerns me most about this thread is the discussion about continuiing work. The entire concept of the build season is that work STOPS midnight-local for everyone.

I suggest everyone review the rules around work stoppage (mechanical and electrical). There are allowances for spares/etc within the confines of the rules, but essentially all work stops as of this past Tuesday.

It is not fair to other teams that follow the prescribed schedule for anyone to violate the schedule and the rules are specific about what is allowed and not.

I would also remind everyone that, as Cheif Delphi's site has become the defacto FRC info site, this does become somewhat a record-keeping site for other teams/FIRST referees to refer to - AKA your comments are public knowledge as to "skirting" the rules.

This has some truth, but you are wrong on one point. FIRST allows for upgrade parts to be brought in, lets say our turret was functioning poorly, or needed programming, we could keep this and bring it in as an "upgrade" part of the withholding allowance. I see no problem with this.

[nitneylion452]

Originally Posted by robert.hatchett

I empathize with you as you lost the bags, but any plastic bag will probably suffice as long as appropriately tagged and lock-out paperwork is followed.

What concerns me most about this thread is the discussion about continuiing work. The entire concept of the build season is that work STOPS midnight-local for everyone.

I suggest everyone review the rules around work stoppage (mechanical and electrical). There are allowances for spares/etc within the confines of the rules, but essentially all work stops as of this past Tuesday.

It is not fair to other teams that follow the prescribed schedule for anyone to violate the schedule and the rules are specific about what is allowed and not.

I would also remind everyone that, as Cheif Delphi's site has become the defacto FRC info site, this does become somewhat a record-keeping site for other teams/FIRST referees to refer to - AKA your comments are public knowledge as to "skirting" the rules.

As has been stated in previous posts, the rules states that teams can bring up to 30lbs of fabricated parts to repair and/or upgrade their robot. Let's say my robot has no shooter. During the time after stop build day and my first event, I can work on a shooter (that is currently not a part of the robot) and develop it. When I attach my <= 30lb shooter to my competition robot at competition I am upgrading my robot's functionality by adding a shooter.

This process is completely legal and is actually one of the main reasons the formerly named "withholding allowance" was implemented in FRC.


EDIT:

With regard to the topic, you absolutely must call FIRST until after your phone stops ringing you hear a person say, "Thank you for calling USFIRST. This is *name* speaking. How may I help you?"

Obviously, that is not what they will actually say but you should get the point. You're rapidly approaching 72 hours of the robot not being in the bag and that is NOT OK!!!