Go to Post Success is realizing that anything is possible, persistence is the key. - SlamminSammy [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-02-2012, 18:11
Wayne TenBrink's Avatar
Wayne TenBrink Wayne TenBrink is offline
<< (2008 Game Piece)
FRC #1918 (NC Gears)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Fremont, MI, USA
Posts: 528
Wayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond reputeWayne TenBrink has a reputation beyond repute
Re: G28/G44/G45

Here is the response from FIRST Q&A:
--------------------------------------------------
Game - The Game » Penalties » G45
Q. Red robot is in its key lining up to shoot. Blue robot approaches close to red robot to block the shot. Red robot intentionally pushes blue robot back to clear the way for its shot, contacting blue robot while red robot is still in contact with its key. Is this a violation of [G45]?

A. We cannot make a definitive statement on a hypothetical situation, and the final decision on violations of Game Rules is left to the Head Referee at each event. However, generally, if a Robot is attempting to play the game, not simply create Fouls for the opposing Alliance, Rule [G45] will not be violated.
----------------------------------------------

I am satisfied with this answer. Ultimately, it's the referees' call and they will face some tough ones this year. However, it is clear that the GDC wants us to "play the game". It sounds like we will be presumed innocent on [G45] until proven guilty, rather than the other way around. Very good.
__________________
NC Gears (Newaygo County Geeks Engineering Awesome Robotic Solutions)

FRC 1918 (Competing at St. Joseph and West MI in 2017)
FTC 6043 & 7911
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-02-2012, 18:28
Madison's Avatar
Madison Madison is offline
Dancing through life...
FRC #0488 (Xbot)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1999
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 5,244
Madison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond reputeMadison has a reputation beyond repute
Re: G28/G44/G45

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink View Post
Here is the response from FIRST Q&A:
--------------------------------------------------
Game - The Game » Penalties » G45
Q. Red robot is in its key lining up to shoot. Blue robot approaches close to red robot to block the shot. Red robot intentionally pushes blue robot back to clear the way for its shot, contacting blue robot while red robot is still in contact with its key. Is this a violation of [G45]?

A. We cannot make a definitive statement on a hypothetical situation, and the final decision on violations of Game Rules is left to the Head Referee at each event. However, generally, if a Robot is attempting to play the game, not simply create Fouls for the opposing Alliance, Rule [G45] will not be violated.
----------------------------------------------

I am satisfied with this answer. Ultimately, it's the referees' call and they will face some tough ones this year. However, it is clear that the GDC wants us to "play the game". It sounds like we will be presumed innocent on [G45] until proven guilty, rather than the other way around. Very good.
Can anyone that's been through ref. training let us know what plan, if any, exists to announce fouls/penalties after a match? With real-time foul assessment, if there any chance for review? Any shot at learning who did what wrong?
__________________
--Madison--

...down at the Ozdust!

Like a grand and miraculous spaceship, our planet has sailed through the universe of time. And for a brief moment, we have been among its many passengers.
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-02-2012, 18:39
Chris86 Chris86 is offline
Registered User
FRC #4064 (Inzombiacs)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Jacksonville, Florida
Posts: 35
Chris86 is a splendid one to beholdChris86 is a splendid one to beholdChris86 is a splendid one to beholdChris86 is a splendid one to beholdChris86 is a splendid one to beholdChris86 is a splendid one to beholdChris86 is a splendid one to behold
Re: G28/G44/G45

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne TenBrink View Post
Pushing another robot half way across the field and into your lane/key/ramp in order to collect a penalty unsportsmanlike and is not in the spirit of the game.
Especially since it involved shoving said robot over a bridge or bump =P
but I agree with your expectations for the rules/callings.

In my opinion, I think (and I think that the rules think) that "red" robots should be able to intentionally "draw" penalties if "blue" robots insist on being in / too near the key or lane. However, it becomes a strategy when these "red" robots begin to play for the penalties instead of the game (ex. too many repeated attempts to draw penalties or chasing "blue" robots around/blatantly ignoring the game to try to draw penalties)

It'd could easily be made clearer, definitive, and a better rule if red bots could only draw penalties while both blue AND red bots are in contact with the key/lane.
__________________
Current mentor for Team #4064
Proud former member of Team #86: Team Resistance 2007-2011
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-02-2012, 19:58
sammyjalex's Avatar
sammyjalex sammyjalex is offline
Registered User
AKA: Sam Alexander
no team
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: New York
Posts: 66
sammyjalex has much to be proud ofsammyjalex has much to be proud ofsammyjalex has much to be proud ofsammyjalex has much to be proud ofsammyjalex has much to be proud ofsammyjalex has much to be proud ofsammyjalex has much to be proud ofsammyjalex has much to be proud of
Re: G28/G44/G45

I have been through referee training and the training does make these rules quite clear. I will be refereeing at the MAR event at Rutgers.

While in past years there has been a small degree of variation between events, this year I don't believe this will be the case because there will not be the referee discussion at the end of the match that there has been in past years. Calls will be immediately calculated via tablets. Technical fouls will be radio-ed in to the head referee. There will also be hand signals for many fouls. I really believe that FIRST will succeed in their attempt to reduce ambiguity of fouls that are called.

The bottom line is that referees were told in training that any rule that begins with "strategies that", especially G45, will be called if a team does this action more than once. It is not all up to what the referee sees as intent. This includes previous discussions on balls under bridges, balls outside the field, etc.

Regarding Wayne's scenario, I'm believe with confidence that a G28 would be called. For a majority of situations, intent is based on repetition. Of course, there will be extenuating circumstances.

Remember this is just one conjecture on the topic. I hope this helps.
__________________
New York City FIRST
nycfirst.org

Last edited by sammyjalex : 25-02-2012 at 20:01.
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-02-2012, 20:21
Tuba4 Tuba4 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Tom Albert
FRC #0063 (The Red Barons)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Erie, Pa
Posts: 138
Tuba4 has a brilliant futureTuba4 has a brilliant futureTuba4 has a brilliant futureTuba4 has a brilliant futureTuba4 has a brilliant futureTuba4 has a brilliant futureTuba4 has a brilliant futureTuba4 has a brilliant futureTuba4 has a brilliant futureTuba4 has a brilliant futureTuba4 has a brilliant future
Re: G28/G44/G45

Quote:
Originally Posted by sammyjalex View Post
For a majority of situations, intent is based on repetition.
I guess my question is then what constitutes repetition? Is it x number of times in y number of seconds? Is it x times per match? Is it once or twice in several consecutive matches a team plays?
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 25-02-2012, 20:41
GaryVoshol's Avatar
GaryVoshol GaryVoshol is offline
Cogito ergo arbitro
no team
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Royal Oak, MI
Posts: 5,762
GaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond reputeGaryVoshol has a reputation beyond repute
Re: G28/G44/G45

Quote:
Originally Posted by Madison View Post
Can anyone that's been through ref. training let us know what plan, if any, exists to announce fouls/penalties after a match? With real-time foul assessment, if there any chance for review? Any shot at learning who did what wrong?
This is supposed to be covered in the next Team Update on Tuesday.
__________________
(since 2004)
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:42.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi