weight withholding allowance question

[iblis432]

According to the Q&A parts connected to COTS items connected to other COTS items are considered fabricated. However, if we bring in motors already connected to gearboxes, does this count as fabricated? You can buy the motors already connected to the gearboxes, so does that mean that those are COTS items and the ones we connected, despite being functionally identical, are fabricated?

[engunneer]

I would say that a Motor and gearbox unit brought in exactly as it was purchased, should be ok. The assembly itself is COTS. Bring documentation that this is how you bought it, and keep it in the original box if you can.

Good question.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Which particular gearbox/motor combo is this? The only one I can think of that's unquestionably FRC legal is the PG71 gearmotor.

[iblis432]

the CIM motor with a 12:1 gearbox on it. I know you can buy them with the gearbox already connected.

[PAR_WIG1350]

Originally Posted by iblis432

the CIM motor with a 12:1 gearbox on it. I know you can buy them with the gearbox already connected.

If you are referring to this, it is not COTS since "custom" parts are not considered to be COTS per rule [R22]

A Commercial, Off-The-Shelf (COTS) item is defined as a part in its unaltered, unmodified state. A COTS item is a standard (i.e. not custom order) part that is or at one time been commonly available from a Vendor. Once a COTS item is modified in any way, it becomes a Fabricated Item.

Standard P80 gearboxes are not available with this option, they only come with kits to mount a CIM.

[engunneer]

Have to agree here. It looks custom to me.

[RRLedford]

If I can order extruded aluminum framing in cut-to-length sizes by just typing in the length on the ordering web page, is this considered custom or standard?

If it is COTS standard item, then, if I cut it in half, are the two halves considered COTS, or have they become custom?

If I order a 36" piece of extrusion online, and then cut it into (3) 12" pieces before arriving at competition, can I still consider the pieces COTS (if I could have just clicked QTY: (3) LENGTH: 12" online), or must my Invoice actually read "(3) 12" aluminum extrusions, to not have to count it tord the 30lb limit.?

If Home Depot gives one free cut of lumber, can I consider any size piece of their lumber as COTS, or must I bring a standard 8' length and only cut it in the pits to the length I need.

What about fasteners? Can I buy 3" fully threaded fasteners, and then cut some down to 2" or 1" before competition, and then still consider the shorter ones COTS, or must I only cut them in the pits, in order to use them without counting toward the 30LB limit of custom stuff brought?

If I know I am going to swap 3 items on my bot for 3 other COTS items that require a total of 36" of framing, and I already have a 36" COTS piece of of framing, must I only bring the 36" piece as COTS and then cut it into the sizes I need in the pits? Can I pre cut it and still consider the pieces as COTS? In order to arrive at competition with three pre-cut pieces, must I make a new COTS order for three more cut-to-size pieces on the website. This seems wastful, since I already have the COTS material needed to cut the three pieces from.

Is the intention to limit use of available COTS items inventory brought to competition, or to limit amount of in-the-pits modifications, using COTS items, that can be done during competition by preventing the pre-competition investment of labor into cots items ?

-Dick Ledford

[slijin]

A Commercial, Off-The-Shelf (COTS) item is defined as a part in its unaltered, unmodified state. A COTS item is a standard (i.e. not custom order) part that is or at one time been commonly available from a Vendor. Once a COTS item is modified in any way, it becomes a Fabricated Item.

Originally Posted by RRLedford

If I can order extruded aluminum framing in cut-to-length sizes by just typing in the length on the ordering web page, is this considered custom or standard?

Unless the Vendor only provides or sells customer-requested lengths (in which case this question should be posed in a Q&A), it is considered custom; that is, if the Vendor offers any standard lengths or sizes for the object in question and you order a size that is not one of those, it is considered custom.

Originally Posted by RRLedford

If it is COTS standard item, then, if I cut it in half, are the two halves considered COTS, or have they become custom?

This is a modification, which therefore makes it a custom part.

Originally Posted by RRLedford

If I order a 36" piece of extrusion online, and then cut it into (3) 12" pieces before arriving at competition, can I still consider the pieces COTS?

No, you may not.

Originally Posted by RRLedford

If Home Depot gives one free cut of lumber, can I consider any size piece of their lumber as COTS, or must I bring an 8" length and only cut it in the pits to the length I need.

See my first response.

Originally Posted by RRLedford

What about fasteners? Can I buy 3" fully threaded fasteners, and then cut some down to 2" or 1" before competition, and then still consider the shorter ones COTS, or must I only cut them in the pits, in order to use them without counting toward the 30LB limit of custom stuff brought?

The latter.

[RRLedford]

So, in order to bring in the maximum "under 30 lbs" worth of stuff considered to be customized assemblies, we are looking at stripping out most of their easily removable COTS component items that have previously been integrated into these customized assemblies, and then reassembling them in the the pits.
Is this considered an acceptable strategy within the rules?

-Dick Ledford

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Dick,
[R26]
Teams may bring a maximum of 30 lbs of Fabricated Items to each competition event to be used to repair and/or upgrade their Robot at the competition site. The Operator Console and any battery assemblies (see[R03]-A) are not applicable.

That would suggest that COTS items removed from fabricated parts are not included in the 30lbs. However, if you modified any of the COTS items, i.e. machining on the shaft of a CIM, then that part is no longer a COTS item.

[FrankJ]

So using this logic;
[devil's advocate mode]
Batteries with the wires cut to length, Anderson connecters crimped or soldered count in the weight allowance? Is it specifically exempted?

Motors with the leads attached?

Andymark gear boxes that have been assembled from the as delivered condition?

Banebot gear boxes that have been disassembled, greased, & reassembled?

Raw stock that has been cut from the as delivered condition so that it will fit in the pit? It seems like previous years rules specially allowed this. Lost in the simplification?
[/devil's advocate mode]

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

So using this logic;
[devil's advocate mode]
Batteries with the wires cut to length, Anderson connecters crimped or soldered count in the weight allowance? Is it specifically exempted?

Motors with the leads attached?

Andymark gear boxes that have been assembled from the as delivered condition?

Banebot gear boxes that have been disassembled, greased, & reassembled?

Raw stock that has been cut from the as delivered condition so that it will fit in the pit? It seems like previous years rules specially allowed this. Lost in the simplification?
[/devil's advocate mode]

Batteries are explicitly expemted in the rules.

Banebots that have been greased but do not have motors assembled is something everyone seems to be letting go but I'm not sure of the official ruling. If the motors are assembled they are no longer COTS.

AM gearboxes that are assembled and not as delivered are no longer COTS as they have been assembled. This is equivalent to carrying in an assembled kitbot and saying it is COTS. Once you put that sweat equity in it is no longer a COTS part.

Raw material that is just cut for handling purposes is fine, however if your handling length is exactly what you need to make a part you designed for pit fab we both know you're lying.

This is an honor system and there are many of us that go to extraordinary measures to comply the rules, so if some one thinks they see something fishy be prepared to answer their questions.